Max Russel

What made you get involved in this project?

Anushka Sonpal

Well as you know it's my family history so I have always been interested in it, but I think approaching the 50 year anniversary of the expulsion really sort of prompted more interest in it. I think over lockdown especially when I had the head space to engage with lots of other things I spoke to my family a lot more about it, about what happened to them, did a little family history project with them as well, with my cousins and my aunts and uncles. So yeah I think I've just been developing more of an interest over the last few years, and so when I saw this on Twitter I thought “Oh wow this sounds like a really good way to learn more”, wider than my family [history], and thought interested to learn a new skill of oral history as well, and it kind all just seemed to work in terms of it was at UEL Docklands, were I work anyway, so it was a coincidence, it kind of all just felt like “Oh this is something I really want to get involved in”.

Max Russel

Fantastic. And going on that point of learning new skills in oral history, how was attending the training day for you, and also meeting other people from a similar background that were also doing the project?

Anushka Sonpal

Yeah so I thought the training was really fantastic. I just felt really inspired afterwards. I thought she [Professor Becky Taylor] pitched it really well, I gauged new knowledge as well as new skills, so yeah I thought it was great. I liked the fact it was quite small group actually so we could learn from each other and have those group discussions and I think for me, apart from my family, I don't actually know that many people that are from the same heritage, I do from the same heritage, but in the sense of that story and that same background, so I enjoyed being in that space with other people, that we have something really deeply in common, even though we might be quite different people.

Max Russel

And then of course with the project you did two interviews, am I correct in saying both of them you went to the persons’ house?

Anushka Sonpal

I did yeah.

Max Russel

How was that, being welcomed into both of those individuals’ personal spaces, and also getting to meet someone in person and sit down with them?

Anushka Sonpal

I thought it was really special actually, both of them [the interviews] are really emotional for both parties because through what they were saying, I've obviously kind of connected through that story because it's my story as well, my family story, even though you know there's personal things, especially like in Uma’s there was some really like deep stuff about what had happened. So I just felt really welcomed, obviously they’d consented to and they were really open to being part of this project so they really both welcomed me with open arms, I very much felt like I was like part of their family by the end of it, and I think it was really good to go into their spaces because I feel like they both dug quite deep, but I think being in their own environment was really important to feel comfortable. I don’t think it would have been the same if we had met in a café, or they’d come to mine, or we'd done it in some generic space, I think it was important that it was at home.

Max Russel

And you also had the unique opportunity of interviewing two people from different generations, one person born in the 1930s and one much later in the 1960s, I believe. What were the differences, but also the similarities, about how they talked about living in Uganda and also about what happened in 1972?

Anushka Sonpal

So it was really interesting with Uma, I can't remember how old she was when she moved over [to the UK], but she was still quite young.

Max Russel

She was nine years old.

Anushka Sonpal

Nine, it was really young. So her memories they were quite strong for a nine year old I think, and I think especially like that time at the actual point of having to leave are really like deep deep there, but I think she mostly talked about it as being quite a happy childhood until then. Whereas Anant’s interview it was just different because it's [at] a point where [he] was an adult and he had to come here and build a life as an adult, as a father, with all of that weight, all of that responsibility, so yeah it was quite different, where as I guess Uma had to grow up here and find her way as a teenager, and it was interesting for me because she said like her older sisters for example still wear saris, still speak English with quite a strong Gujarati accent, whereas she doesn't at all, day-to-day she wears western clothes and will wear saris at functions, so she was talking about that assimilation and actually coming over younger maybe made it easier for her in some ways.

Max Russel

And to add to that as well you said you talked to your family about their history, from these two interviews what stuck out that maybe you weren't aware of before, but also stuff that you related to and found similar to the experiences with your family’s history?

Anushka Sonpal

So I think the buried trauma, I think they both said to me “I haven't talked about this before I didn't know it was so deep” and I definitely see that in my family as well I think, even though it was 50 years ago it's still part of them, and therefore I guess part of me, and they’ve both got children, so I think I really relate to that, that you scratch a bit below the surface and there's actually a lot there emotionally. I think the happy memories of the way they talked about Uganda, I think that [is] really similar to what my parents would say for example, my aunts and uncles they talk about it really fondly, the good times, they talk about it being it was a lovely place to grow up in terms of climate, in terms of lifestyle, they were kind of middle class, fairly wealthy. I don't think anyone really talked about the sort of [racial] hierarchy, or the racism against black Ugandans, which I don't know if that's just something brushed under the carpet and not talked about, whether they're really conscious of it or not, or they kind of don't want to go there because it's so complicated and complex.

Max Russel

I think that’s a very valid point, another layer that is so involved in this history, in this story, but maybe needs more work done on it. To wrap up I wanted to ask you, on a personal level, what are your biggest takeaways from this project?

Anushka Sonpal

I've taken away [that] it's just so important to listen to people's stories, everyone's got a story, it helps you to understand people around you but it helps you to understand [yourself], even though it's not directly related to you I think on a human level I think listening is really important, and not interrupting which I think we struggle [with] in our fast-paced society, everything is moving fast all the time, and I think taking a step back, if someone's talking to me just stop and listen because they obviously want to share. Even on my street there's a lady who just I've just kind of got to know and every time I bump into her I can tell she wants to engage, I don't know if she's lonely or something, but generally I can spare 5 minutes, I’ll always take time and talk to her now, because I think people want human connection and I felt I just met these two people for like 2 hours, probably won't keep in touch with them, maybe I don't know, but the deep connection you can actually form by kind of being really open and sharing that personal stuff and respecting, I felt “God these people are sharing this with me, it's really very deep, they haven't told some of this stuff to their closest people before so wow that's a privilege for them to have done that”.

Max Russel

I think that’s an amazing takeaway, that’s so poignant, especially as you are saying that, within an hour and a half/two hours, you can connect with someone on such a deep level, but also I think we have to say thanks to those people for opening up to that extent. What do you think for future generations of people that are part of the Ugandan Asian community, both with this history but also identity, what do you see as the way forward or more work that needs to be done, what do you think the approach is?

Anushka Sonpal

I mean I work in education I think it just needs to be somewhere in the school curriculum, I know that that’s an evolving thing, but I think we need to learn about it. Kids need to know that this happened, this was part of British history. I know there’s so much discussion about why empire needs to be in the curriculum a lot more so I think schools are probably the way, because I think otherwise how else are you going to get young people to access it, you might have some teenagers who are really into history and will actively look at stuff but I think the curriculum is the way forward.

Max Russel

I wholeheartedly agree thank you so much Anushka.