Anushka Sonpal

So yeah, do you just want to start by introducing yourself for the recording and just saying a bit about your life and talk about some childhood memories to get started.

Anant Mehta

I was born in Kampala 9/11/1935 and first few years of life I was really a very bright student and I was doing very well compared to my cousins who are older [than] me but they were two years behind me [in school], but then in 1947 my parents had to go to India to visit their parents and then I stayed in India from 1946 [to] 1955, not due to requirement that I was supposed to stay in India for that length of time but my grandparents had got so fond of me that they said “You are not going anywhere” my parents, that is their children, “Can go anywhere, they can go to Kampala but you are staying behind in Morbi (which is a small state) and look after us because you’re such a good kid that we don't want you to go”. So my parents asked me “What is your decision, do you want to stay or do you want to come with us? Be frank and don't hesitate” so I said “I don't mind staying behind because grandad is so fond of me that he doesn't go to sleep without me doing his Pug Chumpi (foot massage)” he wouldn’t go to sleep so I said “I cannot go and leave him behind”. Sorry I’m a bit emotional but he was so fond of me that I agreed I would stay and [said] “Don't worry about me, you can go back to Kampala”.

Vinit Mehta

It was a very big decision even now when you think about it, you were only 12 years old?

Anant Mehta

Yeah

Vinit Mehta

12 years old and to make that sort of decision at the age of 12 to say to your parents “You go, I’ll stay behind in India” and I can't imagine that.

Anant Mehta

Looking back I can feel the pain because by staying in Morbi, just a small state, I had to sacrifice, so to speak my basic school studies, because everything there was in Gujarati. So I studied all my secondary education, primary, everything A to Z was completely in Gujarati so it was a big sacrifice because my cousins who came to India and then went back with their parents, back to Kampala, were doing very well, they had a Cambridge education and all that, they were progressing well whereas I had to stay with my grandparents and sacrificed that which I don't mind because it gave me a lot of experiences there as well.

Vinit

I think actually in many ways it made him the person that he is, that sacrifice was incredible.

Anant Mehta

My grandad wouldn’t go to sleep until I did his Indian phrase

Vinit Mehta

Then you went back at what age?

Anant Mehta

Right then of course I stayed in Morbi and I did everything all my [education] including algebra, geometry, physics, chemistry, all the subjects in Gujarati so obviously that basic foundation of my education was sacrificed and after that I passed my exams with flying colours, I got very good grades and plus points and everything, but then my parents said “Look now you’ve down your sacrifice enough for the grandparents now you can go to Bombay and do your further education there in English”, which I accepted and then I went to Siddharth College in Bombay. So it was a big change, everything was from completely in Gujarati [and then] I had to learn all my science subjects in English, it was very tough but I managed somehow, I worked hard and I got [a  Science qualification] in English and after that in 1954 my dad said “You’ve sacrificed enough in India now I think you better come back to Kampala and we want to send you to England because all your cousins here are already studying in England, why should you stay in India and study there?”. Which I thought was a bit of sacrifice and I agreed and said “Yes high time I come back to Uganda” but back of mind I say whatever happened I’ve got the blessings of my grandparents because none of my cousins had the chance to look after them and I had the opportunity and I’ve been blessed.

Vinit Mehta

Then you came to the UK in 1955?

Anant Mehta

1955. At that time two of my cousins had already come to the UK for studies whereas I was back in India, so my father didn't speak loudly to say “Why is my son staying in India and is not here?” but I asked him “Look my cousins are studying in the UK, so can I come back and perhaps go to the UK?” and he said “Yeah of course, of course you have to come back here and do it” but he wasn't loud enough to tell his the brothers to say “Look I want my son to go to the UK as well”. Because it used to be a company in which all the brothers were together in one company, so all the expenses would have been paid by the company. So two of my cousins were already in the UK studying and I was studying in India, then my father suddenly realised that it is a sacrifice so he asked me to come back to Uganda in 1954 so I went back at that time in the UK the universities didn’t start until about September so I was there in about April. So about six months in Uganda. So there was a shortage of teachers in Uganda so my dad said “Do you want to teach at a senior school?” and I said “Not at that level I’d rather go to a primary school”, because of my background, so then I became teacher in the primary school for about 2/3 months and then I developed my confidence and then my dad said that “There is a vacancy in science subjects in Kololo school doing it part time a few hours in English” so I said “Yeah okay I definitely can have a go”. So I studied some science subjects in English and revised and everything and then I was teaching physics & chemistry in secondary school and that was only a period of about six months, and then my father also realised that my cousins, two cousins were studying already in the UK, so why don't I have an opportunity to go to UK, so he told my uncle that “Look my son is also a grown up and he is ready to start his further education”. So my uncle agreed, so I went by boat from Bombay I had a journey of about 21 days and I went back from Bombay to Kampala and then after doing teaching for about six months I enjoyed my short stay in Kampala, and then I was given a chance to come to UK and that was in August 1955. Yeah in August 1955 I came to UK did my science subjects, found it a bit tough because all my background was in Gujarati, but I managed. I passed my A Levels in two years, not with flying colours but good standard, and then I was given admission in the pharmacy college in Leicester. So I did made my pharmacy in Leicester which was in 1957/60 so my A levels in 1955 to 1957 and 1957 to 1960 my pharmacy. 1960 finished studies and then for one year I had what they called an apprenticeship, a training period, which I did in London so I got the training and then in 1961 I came back to Uganda.

Anushka Sonpal

How old were you are at the point?

Anant Mehta

Approaching 26. So at the airport, my father used to be in shop, so my uncle used to receive everybody at the airport he was in charge of receiving guests and everything. So my uncle who was elder to my father came with my wife’s father, they both came there at the airport, so [I] got down at the airport and because I had my background in India I sort of did namaste. So my future father in-law was impressed and he said “This is my son-in-law” he made up his mind, I don’t know how they agreed, and he said “I can call my daughter from Mombasa”, because he was being an accountant in Kampala, so he said “I’ll call my daughter”. Within a fortnight/month I was told that “You're going to see a girl” I said “Not yet” I said “I've just come back, I’ve finished my studies, I want to earn some money, buy a car, settle down, and then I'll think about it” and they said “There’s no harm in seeing her, then you can say that I will wait for the 6 months, or a year, or two years” so I said “Okay in that case I don't mind”. So she flew from Mombasa to Kampala and we met, in those days you met for a short period, and they said “What’s your decision?” and I said “No the girl is okay, there is nothing negative I feel about her, that I dislike her or I would think twice” so they said “Okay then we can say that the engagement [is on]” I said “No no no” I said “I like the girl, its fine, but give me a chance. I haven’t earnt any money, I want to earn money, I want to buy a car then I can take her out in my car, but not yet, I’m not ready for engagement yet” they said “All those things can come afterwards. We’ll give you the money so you can buy a car” I said “I don’t want money like that” and they said “Oh no we’ll give it [to] you as a loan so you can return it when you want” so I said “Oh this is not on. I’ve just come back, I can't just commit myself like that”. They said, because they were friends, coincidentally my wife’s parents and my parents studied together in a small village called Maliya near Morbi and they were school friends, so they had decided want they wanted to do so there was no second thought. They said “No you’ve got to agree, do you dislike the girl?” I said “No” they said “If you dislike the girl then it’s okay, then you’ve got a right to say no” I said “Oh no there's nothing wrong with the girl I like her, she’s fine, she’s very pleasant, she’s good looking, she’s fair” so they said “Okay in that case tomorrow we sit down ,we tie the Gor Dhana (refers to the sweet treat made from coriander seeds and jaggery that are exchanged as part of the engagement ceremony)” I said “That’s too early” they said “Don’t worry about that will look after that”. So that was it and we agreed. I’d hardly met her, I’d saw her once and had a chat for about ten minutes and that was about it in those days, that was the case, that’s how we met and how these three children were born after then in Kampala. Vinit was the youngest baby and now he’s a grown up baby, 53 years old. That was a very good life in Kampala because there I could have started my own shop and that is what I was told, because my father and his brothers and cousins, there are four brothers and four cousins eight of them ,nobody would know who is who, they didn't know who is brother and who is a cousin they were all brothers. Eight of them were brothers and they were in a company and they had three shops so between three shops they were all divided, two brothers would stay in one shop, two in another and the very busy shop would have three like that they were all sort of running the shops and they were very busy from morning till evening working hard. So that way they managed to send the children to the UK for studies so like my two cousins went and then I had a chance to study in the UK and after that all the younger brothers and their children had the chance to come to the UK for studies. So that was a good life in Kampala. For myself I was also lucky that I managed to pass my exams and studies and get experience in UK and going back to Uganda I could have started my own shop, my father said “We’ll finance you and you can start a pharmacy” I said “Nothing doing because I don’t want to start a shop and have that burden, I will work in a wholesale pharmaceutical company, gain some experience there and see what to do after that”. So I worked in a wholesale company to gain some experience in the pharmaceutical field, that I did for about a year and a half, after that I got an offer from one of the pharmaceutical companies so I said “This is a good opportunity” you get a company car and you get all the 5* hotels to stay in, so I said “That’s the kind of thing I want, I don’t want to start a little pharmacy and be bogged down in a shop” so I accepted the job of medical rep. The medical rep job was very pleasant because you go to the doctors, the doctors were our Asian friends so they would go “Don’t worry, you go home take your wife [out], don’t do what you do, do shopping anything you want in your spare time but you don’t worry about these products, so you can do what you like”. I had so much spare time that I went home and said to my wife “If there’s anything else you want me to do” “Okay there are a few things like this you have to do”, so I used to manage to do all those things [on] the company’s time. So it was a very easy cushy job in other words.

Anushka Sonpal

Can you tell me a bit more about where you lived, what was your house like, what was day-to-day life like for you and what did you do at weekends?

Anant Mehta

Yeah Kampala life was very very nice because in the morning till evening everyone was busy of course, that was from 9 till about 4-5 o'clock, some people were lucky for 4.35 o'clock I used to be lucky as well to finish by 5 o'clock, then you go home and then dinner wasn’t until about 7 o'clock. So we have the time between five and seven and Kampala was situated very pleasantly on seven hills so we used to go on different hills, because we had a nice company car. So in the evening you can take your children in the car, I used to take our little boy in the car, we used to go on Kampala Road and he knew all the signs Coca-Cola etc. So it was a very pleasant time, a very comfortable life, so that was from 1961 till 1971. Ten years I worked in a wholesale pharmaceutical [company] then after having gained experienced I got a job with a wholesale pharmaceutical, it was less travelling, because my wife and children were all complaining that “You are out most of the time”.

Anushka Sonpal

Were all your children born in Kampala?

Anant Mehta

All three were born in Kampala. So then I took up that job because that was a more stationary job in the one place. So we had a very nice job there so I had to just look after the day-to-day running because the medical reps used to go out and do the job. I had done my PhD so I had a steady and a cosy job then between 1968 till 1971. 1971 I had a chance to come to the UK. One of my friends said “I’m going to the UK why don’t you accompany me because you know about the UK”, it was the first time for him, he was a close close friend because his children and my children were about the same age group, so we used to travel together in Uganda quite a lot going to various places. So I said “Yeah okay”. So we two came into the UK 1971 he had a good time because I showed him around, didn't realise that within a year we’ll be leaving [Uganda] and coming back [to the UK]. I was just showing him “I used to study here and this is where I used to stay” so I showed him places and he said “Yeah it’s a very nice house and it’s a very pleasant place” and he said “I would like to come here and stay” I said “Why?”, because his brother had come for studies, younger brother, and settled in the UK. I had [had] enough [of] UK weather those wintery months. I still remember when I used to put 6 pence in the fireplace and it was all gone within half an hour, so I used to put on my gown and a blanket because I couldn’t afford to put anymore money in it. So it was tough days in the beginning because my uncle used to send us money but he was so particular that he said “I will send £3.50 every week to the three of you”, because my two cousins were studying as well, and I used to ask for a bit more money, I said “Because in London it is more expensive life and they are living up [in areas] where it is cheaper” he said  “Nothing doing, you will get that amount and they'll get that amount, there is no argument about it” so I couldn’t get any more money so I had to manage with what funds I got, so that was life.

Vinit Mehta

And then in 1971 you came here and then you went back.

Anant Mehta

Yeah I went back to Uganda, again not realising that I would be leaving Uganda soon after that. 1972 when Idi Amin announced that first “All the girls here who are Indians they are Africans. So all our African boys will marry Indian girls”. All the parents got so frightened, sent all their girls to Kenya “It’s a safer place” people were so worried that the girls will sort of get forced to marry. He was of course talking nonsense, but that did happen, and most of the girls of course came back. They went to Kenya just temporarily and they came back and everything was alright until he really went mad and he said “90 days all the Asians should leave Uganda” nobody believed it. The ambassador from the UK came to Kampala to talk to Idi Amin to say look “We will take all the Asians all these 30,000, but in batches, we’ll take 1,000 every year” he said “Nothing doing all these 30,000 have to go back in three months”. So of course the British government couldn't believe it, they said “How can we take in the 90 days, absorb so many Asians in one go?”. So they tried to talk to him but he was a madman, as we all know now, and he said  “No. 90 days means 90 days. Not even 91 days” and he was so adamant about it that the British government had to agree to take all these 30,000 people in three months. Luckily for me at that time I was working in Uganda, at that time of course there was exchange control and you couldn't send money out, but as I had some savings when I was [a] student, which came in handy, so there was some funds in the UK. So I said initially first “I’ll get to the UK, I'll get a job, and settle down quickly”. So I decided with all my family I said “I'll take my family along”, that was very early days, it was soon after he announced the very first time, I think very first week of September. He said in August the 90 days and all of us were [in] the first batches from Uganda to leave for the UK, and I took all my family and my Vinit was only about a year old so we flew with KLM. So we took that flight with the children from Kampala to Amsterdam, and then Amsterdam to London. So that was the experience of a lifetime with the family, to come out like that, but that I studied pharmacy in the UK is going to be helpful because some of my friends said “We're going to Canada” because they preferred to go to Canada but I said “No I like Canada” I’d been there, I love Canada but I said “I think the UK might be a better place” where I would settle quickly, which was the case. So we came to the UK on September 10^th, we came from Uganda to the UK, and we were so lucky that at the airport, we were one of the first batches so we were received by, I think it was a voluntary organisation run by the ladies in UK, they had come with nice overcoats, hats caps, shoes, all those things in various sizes and we were surprised at the airport as we came out and they were there to say “Welcome to the UK” and they gave us all these clothing and everything and they said “Whatever fits you, you take it” and we said “That’s a very big gift” because coming into cold weather suddenly from a warmer country. So that was nice and the best part was from the airport, because we were one of the first batches there used to be a student hostel on High St Kensington which was vacant, so we were given that accommodation in High St Kensington where we stayed. We were given bread and butter everything initially, so we were very well looked after by, the British Council I think used to be the institute who used to receive us and look after us, so they asked the ladies “What would you like?” so they made a list of things they required,, so they even started cooking there our own food. So we were really more at home in High St Kensington so that was the most welcome part of our expulsion from Uganda to this welcome in the UK. And I think it was Friday or something when we landed and Monday morning I rang up a society that I would like to find a job and they said “Are you ready to work in Southgate?”, that was a known area I knew Southgate my friend used to live in Southgate and I used to go there with another friend, and I said “Oh yes I don’t mind”. So they said “Can you start working from this morning?”. So at 9 o’clock in the morning they said “Go to Southgate station, there’s a chemist and they need [someone]”. So that was my first job, I was so excited, I said “I landed in the UK and I’ve got a job”. So that was a good experience, a lovely way to start my life [in the UK], it started well because with three children our main advantage was that, we were also very very fortunate that while we were at the hostel there in High St Kensington one family came from Muswell Hill we didn't know they were doctors, husband and wife both doctors, and they said “Would you like to come and stay in Muswell Hill?” and I got so excited because I know Bounds Green so well, so it was so near there, so I said “Yes”.

Anushka Sonpal

Were they English?

Anant Mehta

Yes and they were both doctors, we didn’t know that they were doctors, so we said “Yes” and it was the beginning of our life in the UK and it's such a nice beginning to be in a posh area like Muswell Hill, and such a nice couple, and they had two young children as well. Nut in the kitchen, they made half of the kitchen [for us] and half of the kitchen for themselves, and they told my wife “This is your area, you do what you like, you can cook your own food and give us a list of what you need and we will get it for you”. In no time we started cooking and eating our own food and the children were sent to school from there, and we were staying with them for about three months, we stayed over 90 days with them until, because I was lucky I had some funds, so I had a friend in Bounds Green so I said “If there is any house nearby let me know”. So luckily one Greek couple wanted to go back to Cyprus and he said “Yeah there is one nice place in Bounds Green, so if you want to go get it, it is around £11,000”. I had about £8,000 so we grabbed it, and we were lucky to move into the house within about, I think we stayed with the couple in Muswell Hill for about 80 days, but we were very fortunate that couple was so wonderful I couldn’t believe our luck so to speak, to find a place and find a place to live like that in Muswell Hill area.

Anushka Sonpal

And it’s interesting thinking about it in terms of now and how the country is so unwelcoming to people.

Vinit Mehta

This is true because when dad said that there were people on the tarmac waiting with coats, and you think about it now and how different it is. But Anushka was asking if you kept in touch with the couple, the doctors?

Anant Mehta

Oh yeah we wanted to keep in touch with them, while they were in Muswell Hill we kept in touch and we even invited them for tea and they came down, but when they left they said “We're going down to Southend-on-Sea” so I said “Oh that’s nice, we’d like to keep in touch with you at least Christmas cards and all that”. So initially they gave us their address and we kept in contact with Christmas cards but after a year or two I think they decided to move from there for retirement because they were getting on, and I think they went up north, but then we lost contact with them.

Anushka Sonpal

Did they ever talk about why they wanted to welcome people into their home?

Anant Mehta

I think they were devout Christians. They were really very religious people, very religious people.

Anushka Sonpal

And when you were building a life here did you ever think about Uganda?

Anant Mehta

Oh yeah right initial life it was quite tough because initially I could just about afford to put a deposit on the house, but I couldn't buy a car. So initially I used to carry Vinit and our children in our laps and going into buses, getting the pram, it was quite a challenging time but it didn’t last too long, I think within a year or so I bought a second hand car for around £250 or something. My brother who lived in Leatherhead, it was quite a distance away from us, so he said “There's a second hand car you can have it”, maybe it was his car I can’t remember now, but he said “It’s a nice car” so I said “thank you”. So initially the first couple of years we travelled by train and buses and all that but then I had a second hand car after that. I started working, I think between 1971 and 1973, so we started our own shop in 1975. Yeah very first shop [was in] Tottenham was in about in 1975. So I put a deposit on that shop and then there was a friend of mine, Mr. Patel,  he was bit more experienced so I took him and I said “You know this is a shop, what is your opinion about it?” so the next thing I know he bought it himself.

Anushka Sonpal

Oh you were going to buy it and then he [bought it?]

Vinit Mehta

Yeah he did, dad’s very trusting, dad’s got a very trusting nature. They’re still in touch, they’re still friends.

Anant Mehta

It was a nice shop and it was so near Bounds Green, after that I struggled to find shops around this area. So one shop came up in Hornchurch because there used to be a big pharmaceutical company who had branches and they were well done, but the nearest one I could get was in Hornchurch, so I said “Let's go [for it], it doesn’t matter”. So I went for that shop and I got it and at that time we used to commute, there was no M25.

Anushka Sonpal

How far? I don’t even know where Hornchurch is.

Vinit Mehta

Essex

Anant Mehta

Romford. About 20 miles, but it was a tough 20 miles because there was no M25 then, so we used to go via Gants Hill, and then Gants Hill was chock-a-block, even as it is now, at that time it was the same. So we used to travel, sometimes I used to get there about 9:30, my shop used to open at 9:00 o'clock luckily we had two old ladies who were very sincere workers and they used to open the shop look after the customers and keep everything ready or dispensing and everything. I used to just go in and say “Okay give it out, give it out” but we had very good staff. So we ran that shop until 1976 and then a shop came up in Southgate so we thought “Ah that’s good”.

Vinit Mehta

I think we bought that one in 1981, before that we bought Westbury.

Anant Mehta

Oh yeah Westbury came about 1980 that’s true. Yeah in 1980 first shop that came up was in Turnpike Lane so we bought that shop and we started that shop, but then my father said “Why did you buy another shop?”. I said “I'm happy with the first shop I can run it nicely” and he said “You’ve got a younger brother unfortunately he is not educated” because he was one of those boys, so he used to go to school but then used to leave and go out with his friends roaming around. So my father said “No you have to help him because he's working in a sweet factory” and he used to come home covered in [sugar] so I said “Okay alright then”. So we bought one more shop so I said “He’ll stay there as the manager and then I’ll sell the other shop” so we did that in 1980.

Vinit Mehta

1981 we bought the shop in Southgate

Anant Mehta

1980 was Turnpike Lane and then I bought in 1981, in Southgate.

Vinit Mehta

Can I just [add] one thing, going back to when we had the shop in Hornchurch it was a big sacrifice because dad was saying about the travelling it was so tough that he used to live in the flat above the shop because the travelling go too much. And at that time we were young, you know I was only four/five years old or something like that, but my grandparents they used to look after us. So in many ways, I think I found out years later my mum used to get very upset especially when we were young and we don't see him, we only see him at weekends and stuff, because the whole week he will be there. But it never felt like that for us because our grandparents they brought us up at that age and if it wasn't for them, you know mum and dad they worked so hard.

Anant Mehta

Particularly because running the shop and looking after family wasn't easy, so grandparents they came in very useful at that time, but they used to live with my brother because my brother had a young daughter. So they said “Our priority is there” which we agreed, so they used to look after their daughter more than of course our children, because they were a bit more grown up.

Vinit Mehta

Yeah I think they lived with us until we moved here, and then they stayed with [his brother]. So we moved here in 1979, so mum and dad have been here since September 1979, we moved in on my 9^th birthday.

Anushka Sonpal

And did you find coming from Uganda to here, family networks were more kind of dispersed?

Anant Mehta

Yes we found that some of our friends were living a distance away or some were very very far, as far as Manchester and Leicester. Yeah initially we found our friend circle living very far and all that communication wise was difficult, but because we had a family to raise, children were young, so by the time you came home from working until I started my own business of course it was a challenging time, but an interesting time as well that you enjoyed working hard because you didn't mind travelling or doing extra work.

Anushka Sonpal

Did you have any nostalgia for Uganda?

Anant Mehta

Uganda we will never forget because the worst thing was the weather, that was the part we missed, that always reminded us of Uganda. We said  “Oh my god, wish we were back in Uganda”, this Idi Amin we used to really hate him, because he was overthrown, but then by the time he was overthrown and we were told to go back, they said “Come back, we will welcome you” but it was too late because our children were in the schools and it would be all upsetting and everything obviously.

Anushka Sonpal

Did you know anyone that did go back?

Anant Mehta

No because we had started life here, weather wise we always liked Kampala, I would even say East Africa, because that kind of weather we don’t get here.

Vinit Mehta

It must have been quite tough for you as well, the quality of life you had there going on the seven hills, and then suddenly having this hard life here.

Anant Mehta

That goes without saying because life there was like in heaven, honestly compared to here. Because initially of course it was a country that welcomed us and all that, so we appreciated all that, but at the back of our minds we said “No, it’s nothing like Kampala” because [there] was that feeling of belonging there, rather than here, obviously we have got more years here now but Kampala we missed definitely, Entebbe, we used to be in Entebbe a stones throw [away]. We were discussing with a friend we’d just drive the car and we’d be there in half an hour.

Anushka Sonpal

What did you do in Entebbe?

Anant Mehta

Entebbe was a picnic site.

Anushka Sonpal

Yeah my mum was telling me, she used to go with her family

Anant Mehta

You’d have your own food and snacks, the children used to love it. There was a hotel there as well if you wanted a pint of beer.

Anushka Sonpal

And obviously you have a deep connection to India because you were there from 12 to your late teens, and then obviously life in Kampala, and then here. So out of those three places does one feel more like home in your heart?

Anant Mehta

Almost [definitely] Kampala yeah. Because although my prime life I was in India, so India I liked India, but then I made up my mind and said look “I stayed in India because I had to stay in India” but obviously being born and brought up in Kampala you feel more belonging to Uganda than India, though my prime life was in India. So I enjoyed that period as well, but then I felt that I also sacrificed a lot as well during those years, my prime years, and I was away from home so to speak, but gained experience and I learned a lot which came in handy in later life.

Vinit Mehta

Do you still feel that Kampala is home?

Anant Mehta

I think so, I still always feel that Kampala is home.

Vinit Mehta

Really even now 50 years [later]?

Anant Mehta

Yeah I think so because that was a life, that freedom that life, going up the hills every evening. We’d just drive the car, evening time was free between 5-7, you were up the hills around Kampala, there were so many places to go to and we enjoyed. That life I think will never come back, so to speak.

Anushka Sonpal

So that’s interesting, 50 years you’ve been here but you still feel like that’s [home]?

Anant Mehta

Yeah exactly, here you feel settled but you don’t feel that it’s like home, you feel that home is Kampala. Yeah home life is still Kampala

Vinit Mehta

I think your heart is still there.

Anant Mehta

Yeah heart is still there.

Anushka Sonpal

And have you been back in the last 50 years?

Anant Mehta

Yeah luckily about five years ago my eldest son and his two young boys, nearly now grown up a bit more, but they were about 25 and 27 at that time, and the four of them they said “Would you accompany us to Uganda?”. I said “Oh my god”, straight away I grabbed the opportunity and said “Yes of course”, and they said “We would like you to come with us” and I said “Oh that’s very nice”. So we went there five years ago, and it was a very moving experience, at that same time very pleasant, [a] homecoming so to speak. A little bit disappointed because when we were at Entebbe airport, so dilapidated sort of place, because when we landed there and looked at the counters and [I] thought there would be a luggage conveyor belt, nothing like that. I couldn’t believe it “This is Kampala after so many years. There's no change, no improvement at all in Entebbe airport” it was as bad as when we left so to speak.

Anushka Sonpal

And what was it like showing your son and your grandchildren where you grew up and your memories.

Anant Mehta

Yeah memories were there, the place where we lived and going back to the places that was, really welcoming sort of thoughts, that “Yeah we used to live there”. A lot has changed but not extensively, it had changed because we found these hotels run by Ismaili families.

Vinit

Ismaili Khojas

Anant Mehta

There were a lot of hotels built and all that, so a lot of development was built, but otherwise main roads and the old house where we used to live [were the same], we went there.

Vinit Mehta

Wilson Road.

Anant Mehta

Wilson Road. So we went there and said “Look we used to live here” and the area were we used to study but then it had changed because they had built big parliament buildings and schools, so it’s completely changed.

Anushka Sonpal

[To Vinit Mehta] When you came in 1972 how old was your brother?

Vinit Mehta

My brother he was nine.

Anushka Sonpal

Nine. So he would have had some memories?

Anant Mehta

Yeah he remembers, yeah Surbhi and you [to Vinit Mehta] I don’t think you remember [much]? I thought you might remember maybe.

Vinit Mehta

I can’t remember anything, I was still in my nappies.

Anant Mehta

Surbhi a bit, not a lot, but the oldest son he remembers because he went to primary school there.

Anushka Sonpal

Yeah nine is the sort of age where you have memories don’t you.

Anant Mehta

Yeah happy memories but of course some were sad, sad in the sense that we still miss that [place], because it was a lovely place, the climate was a tropical climate, so Kampala was heaven for us, this is not hell [UK]. This is a place that has given us a nice good living and a good upbringing for the children, but climate wise still miss Uganda.

Anushka Sonpa

Do you mind, you don't have to, but do you mind talking about the relationship between Asians and Ugandan Africans in Uganda, what was that like?

Anant Mehta

When we were there?

Anushka Sonpal

Yeah when you were there.

Anant Mehta

When we were there it was really nice because in the pharmaceutical field some of the top posts were held by Africans, so we had good relations with them as well. So Africans, those who were educated, like particularly we were in the province called Buganda, and in Buganda there were very educated people. It is very sad that when Idi Amin came in power he really massacred this educated lot because he said “These are our enemies, because they are holding all the good posts”.

Anushka Sonpal

So he felt the same about them as he did about Asians?

Anant Mehta

Yeah luckily one thing we are grateful to Idi Amin [for is] he said “Asians out, Asians out”

Anushka Sonpal

So you in a way you felt like you escaped?

Anant Mehta

We didn't hear that anybody was sacrificed in the way [of] hurt or damage no. Army were looting people, you know once you were travelling from Kampala to Entebbe they would stop you, the army with the guns and they would say “Can we look at your bags?” and if we had managed to hide it properly they couldn’t find it, then it’s okay, but if they see anything, a gold chain, anything they found they would take it. Only one [bad] experience I remember, my brother-in-law had a very bad experience, because he was taken to one of the barracks. They pulled [over] the car and they said “You come along with us”, we were lucky travelling from Kampala  to Entebbe we were stopped but they just looked at our bags and said “Okay go go”, but for him for some reason he was stopped and they looked at his bag and they couldn't find anything and they were disappointed [so they said] “Come along with us”. They took him to a place, Makindye, which was a notorious prison, and they took him there and said they were trying to find that he’s got something, that he is hiding, he’s got money and then he hadn’t got [anything]. So he said “I’ve got nothing” so they gave him a thorough examination and then luckily after they said “Okay okay go”. So they had one nasty experience, so to speak, but thank god at least none of our people were hurt physically or violently, that we are grateful for. They took our money in any case, there was stuff left behind, because my father had a shop that was full of goods and he couldn't take anything out of it, so you had to leave everything behind.

Anushka Sonpal

Properties.

Anant Mehta

Yeah property, goods, everything, you had to just hand over the keys. Surprisingly when we heard that after we left, within three years or four years all the shops were empty, everything was gone, disappeared, out in the woods. God knows what happened everybody took what they wanted and I don’t think they went any further, the shops were closed, everything was ransacked, finished, but then Idi Amin was gone as well after four years and then I think gradually, Museveni came in, Uganda came back to life. Because it is a beautiful country, there is cotton and coffee, [they] are the crops which are wonderful crops and you can never starve [in] that country.

Anushka Sonpal

My father's family had a farm so they grew all of those things.

Anant Mehta

Yeah I would say that I miss Uganda, it was a lovely place to live in, because we had a good life as well that’s why I think as well, okay we have a nice life here but we had a tough beginning, but it also gave us so many advantages as well.

Anushka Sonpal

Yeah gave your children different, very different opportunities.

Anant Mehta

Yeah if it was otherwise you’d have to finance them to send them [to the UK].

Vinit Mehta

I still can’t get over what they went through. My father was talking about his brother-in-law just now.

Anant Mehta

Subhash.

Vinit Mehta

Subhash. So Subhash’s oldest son is the same age as me, only few months [apart], and we’re very close, we’re like brothers, and I remember us when we were around about our mid 30s and we were saying “Do you realise my dad was 37 when he had to leave Kampala?”. He had three children under the age of nine and he came with them his own parents and two younger siblings and he looked after everyone. We were doing some videos a few years ago, they were just impromptu interviews I was doing on LinkedIn, and I was never prepared for the questions and it was all about finance, but then he just threw me a question, left field, “Who’s your greatest hero?” and you know you sort of think Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King but actually I didn’t, I thought of my dad, and I said “My dad’s my greatest hero”.

Anant Mehta

It teaches you in life the obstacles or the hurdles they make you, I think stronger, and you can face difficult tasks in life, because if you have an easy life throughout your life, then you just accept things and find it tough if you have to [go through any hard things].

Anushka Sonpal

It’s emotional because I think it also reminds me of my family as well.

For the archives if you imagine future generations in 20 years’ time might be looking through the archives is there anything you’d like them to know about that time.

Vinit Mehta

I think one thing I would say is, my children are 17 and 21 now and we often talk about “God these kids they’re so privileged now, they don’t understand”, but actually, I mean you can't expect them, because they never had to go through the struggle. But actually what I say to my children when we look at what we have I say “This isn't down to me”, I say “Look at the sacrifice Bapuji made” and I say “Actually go back one step [further], they were the pioneers that made that huge step to leave India” can you imagine, how old was he when he left 18?

Anant Mehta

16.

Vinit Mehta

16 to leave your country, to go to this country Uganda that nobody had heard of, 8 brothers and what they created was, I think we became the most successful retail textile business in Uganda, they built that. And from that, as my father was saying, they made sure that their children were educated, they sent them here they got education and [became] pharmacists, dentists, doctors accountants, all of my uncles and everybody, and then the life that they gave us here. I still remember when we came here you know I loved Bounds Green and happy memories, but when we moved here “Oh my god”, but back then it was down to their hard work. So I think we have so much to be grateful for because everything we have today, we wouldn’t have without them.

Anushka Sonpa

No 100%. Well thank you so much because it’s a privilege to be able to listen.

Anant Mehta

No I’m glad to have met you as well, [someone] from the same background so to speak.

Anushka Sonpal

Thank you so much and thank you again for your time.

Vinit Mehta

No it’s a pleasure it’s nice talking about it, it’s an experience, I hear things that I didn’t even know and it’s very important I think that this is all captured and it’s a nice experience. It’s emotional but…

Anushka Sonpal

I think the thing that struck me as well is how you said Uganda still feels like home.

Anant Mehta

Yes I can never forget Uganda, India has given us a life and those advancements, but Uganda is in the heart, born and brought up [there].