Bhavesh Kotecha

Probably the best place to start is actually the start, where were you born?

Mubina Willis

I was born in Kampala, I was born at the Aga Khan maternity hospital in Kampala, my parents adopted me at six weeks.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And have you always known that?

Mubina Willis

I found out when we came to England, up till then I hadn't known, it was never an issue. It isn't an issue for me but I sometimes feel that it’s an issue for other people, and that's fine, like I say to my children “You know what it's okay, not everyone's going to like you and that's fine” and for me I’m Ismaili as well so I follow the Aga Khan spiritually [and] religiously. So there aren't that many black people within the Ismaili faith, there are enough for us to be prominent, but not a force to be reckoned with, but I think things are changing.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So your mother or your father was black?

Mubina Willis

So my birth father was black and my birth mother [is] Ismaili. I've never had the need to go find [them]. I know of her, I know of them, but there's never been a need for me. Every adopted person I’ve met they’ve been like “We've got to find your birth people” and I'm like “No I'm okay, I’m chilled” I'm very happy with who I am, and where I am in the sort of hierarchy of society, I'm chilled. So born in Kampala, parents got me at six weeks, then I moved with them to a place called Kalungu, a little village outside of Masaka. So that's where I predominantly grew up, I was about 4 or 5 I think, it's a very hazy memory. But my parents, I remember felt that I wasn't getting the proper education so they thought that I needed to go to Kampala, and having spoken to a lot of people, and I think it's an Asian thing where you send your children to relatives.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So how old were you when you went to Kampala?

Mubina Willis

I would have been about 4 I think, very young, I was very young.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Any recollection of that time?

Mubina Willis

I have snippets of it and they're very sad, very sad moments for me because I just remember crying a lot, as my parents had left me with my aunt. So yes I was left with family but for me it was so traumatic because I was a little princess and I still am!

Bhavesh Kotecha

I’m just trying to imagine what that must have been like.

Mubina Willis

It was horrendous.

Bhavesh Kotecha

To be sent away. How far is Kampala from Masaka?

Mubina Willis

I think it's about a couple of hours drive.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yeah but to a 4 year old girl…

Mubina Willis

It was another world, and I wasn't even in Masaka, I was in the village which is another hour's drive from Masaka, so it would have been about a good five hour drive, so it was horrendous, and I just remember the pain of why I was being abandoned, and I couldn't understand why I needed to go to school, what was the problem? My aunt has passed away, shouldn't say bad things, but she was horrible you know, something I don't remember but my mum, before her dementia got too much for her, she always used to say the reason why they came back for me [was] because I cried so much and that broke my dad's heart, but also that my aunt would only give me bananas to eat and so I kept losing weight. So every time my dad saw me I was losing weight, so that was a complete no no, and my aunt had already had two children of her own. So the reason behind them taking me in was because when they were in a hard place my dad actually paid for their two children’s education in Kampala, so they thought that this was their way to reciprocate, by having me there, so it was a symbiotic relationship.

Bhavesh Kotecha

I've heard that quite a lot actually because people that looked after us, it was not just immediate family but also others around too.

Mubina Willis

So that was my dad’s brother, he wasn't doing very well, so my dad set him up a business, [he] crashed the business, so my dad said “Okay I will pay for your children’s [education], you go and find yourself a job” and this is something of hearsay, I don't obviously remember that, but I've always known because my cousin will always ring to say “Oh we’re really grateful that your parents did this for us”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

What do you remember about school at that time?

Mubina Willis

I don't remember school. Kampala, that was the pain, I just remember being pulled away from mum and dad. They’d come up on the weekend and then we’d have a lovely time, we’d go [get] ice cream, we’d go out together, have a really fun time, and then I would be determined not to fall asleep. I remember in the car I would not fall asleep because I knew if I fell asleep they would just pick me up and put me in the flat in Kampala, and then they’d drive away. So that was my memory, was not to go to sleep.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So what do you remember about Masaka?

Mubina Willis

Oh Masaka I loved.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Tell me more about it.

Mubina Willis

After all that trauma my dad said “No”, they would move to Masaka, bring me to Masaka, and this is my true princessesnes, if there is such a word, my dad got [me] a driver, had a [Land] Rover, those Defenders, had one of those, and a yaya, both of them would take me to school, they would wait for me for school to finish, bring me home. I loved school in Masaka, I made so many friends, I've just actually connected with a friend who I knew back then, and she's in Calgary, and she messaged me last weekend.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Even as your talking about Masaka your body language is different, you’re lighting up

Mubina Willis

Yeah and I love Masaka, Masaka was home, whereas Kamapala was just, it was sad, it was a sad time for me, and I don't have good memories, even when we left. But yeah coming back had a lovely time there [in Masaka], I remember on a Friday we would go to mosque on Friday, before we’d go to the mosque, mum and her friends, they would get all the servants to get everything ready for the picnic afterwards, after we come out of mosque, by Lake Victoria. So for me that’s something I want the kids to appreciate, not appreciate but understand where I come from. So it’s a bit tangential, we were just in Jamaica last month, and we had a catered villa with staff and my kids find it very difficult whereas I just fell right into it.

Bhavesh Kotecha

It felt familiar?

Mubina Willis

I was just like “I’m okay with this. I don't mind them picking up after me” “But mum you never allow us to do that” I was like “Yeah that’s because I'm the one who picks up!”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So did it remind you of that time?

Mubina Willis

It did, it did, and the kids were like “We’re not quite used to having somebody following us awkwardly, picking up after us”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Because that is a hard concept to talk to our kids [about], that lots of East African Asians had people to help them, servants.

Mubina Willis

They know about this, they know about my driver and my own personal yaya, so I think for them knowing is different than experiencing it.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yes absolutely.

Mubina Willis

So we have a cleaner here, she comes here, she does it once a week but they never see her, whereas this was somebody, not just one person, there was the butler, there was the cook, there were the two chambermaids, and the gardener. So there were five of them looking after us, so I just fell into it but they find it very difficult. So I don't know it's something I've just grown up with and I was just like “Yeah I'm cool about that”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

It's such a vivid memory, as you're talking about it, I can almost picture it and imagine it.

Mubina Willis

It was lovely. Masaka, I can't remember the house in detail, but I remember we had a back garden, we had pineapple fields in the back garden, we had quarters for our servants, I remember we had a gardener whose name was Johnny, because I remember Johnny, and obviously yaya, my yaya. We kept in touch with her when we came here because my dad, I remember him saying she’d called, because her son was coming over and needed help, but obviously we were in the same position as him when we came over, my dad said “I can't help him the way you would like us to help, but I can guide him”, so I think my dad did that. So yeah Masaka was a beautiful time, the picnics, some really good friends that I had, and I’m picking up with them now, and that’s my memory of my childhood is just being in Masaka and we used to go every Friday to mosque, and our mosque was at the top of the hill, halfway was the gurdwara, and at the bottom was the mandir, so you had to pass those two before you got to yours, but it was harmonious and that's something that I've not seen outside of East Africa, and again I want the children to experience that to say “You know what, these three religions cohabitated and there was no animosity, there was no friction”

Bhavesh Kotecha

I’m smiling heavily because my family spent a lot of time in Masaka and they've told me the same story.

Mubina Willis

Oh really?

Bhavesh Kotecha

About the three places of worship and the harmony, which kind of makes me feel amazing that actually happened, that memory is vivid again.

Mubina Willis

That is, I can visualise it in the sunshine, and that's my memory of Uganda, the sunshine, or Masaka with the sunshine, Kampala was never sunny to me, even now talking about it, it's grey and it rained, whereas Masaka hasn't.

Bhavesh Kotecha

It feels like a dark place.

Mubina Willis

It was, Kampala was awful. I was only there maybe six months but it had a profound effect on me, and my relationship with that side of the family, with my aunt and her children, especially her daughter, I don't even talk to her now and I'm very dismissive of her, which is really sad, I'm sure she didn't mean to be like that but that's how I perceived it as a child, and I'm very much of the person that I will not delve into a relationship which is negative for me and is draining I will just say “Okay that's fine, I shut the door”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Because it is quite unusual in this country to explain to others that at such a young age, a really young age, it was common for kids to be sent away to live with another family for education. I'm trying to imagine me explaining that to my kids and they’d be like “Why would you do that?” but it was the norm.

Mubina Willis

It was and I've met lots of friends, in fact I've got one friend and I hadn't realised the relationship that she has with her mum, she's only just got over it now and she's nearly 20 years older than me, and she was sent away as well to her aunt in Dar [es Salaam]. So she never grew up with her parents, so having to look after her mum who’s got dementia she finds that very difficult because she was like “Well you didn’t look after me” and there are times when I feel resentful towards my mum, but then I think no I was only away for six months, I wasn’t away for a long period of time. So Masaka was beautiful I loved it, had the best time, I think I've got pictures of me, I don't know if it's Masaka but I'm definitely sure it's one of my last birthdays that we had in Uganda.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So how old were you then?

Mubina Willis

I would have been 7, that was my 7^th birthday. That was my last birthday in Kampala. So that was just as the 90 days [were happening] because [my birthday is] in September.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay so actually at that time there would have been an awareness that it’s your last [birthday in Uganda].

Mubina Willis

My last yeah, that we're all going away. So that's the last time and that's my mum's side of the family, we’re all together.

Bhavesh Kotecha

I'm looking at this photo, I see lots of smiling places, but what was it like? Do you remember much of that 90 day period?

Mubina Willis

Fear, it was fear. There was a lot of fear, so a lot of those people had gone after my birthday they’d all found their own ways, a lot of them had gone to Canada and America.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So your family is quite dispersed?

Mubina Willis

Yes so mum is one of nine sisters and four brothers. Three brothers went to Canada, one brother was here in Surrey, all the sisters, bar one sister, she ended up in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and all the others were here, but my aunt who looked after me wanted to send her kids to McGill University, she wanted her daughter to go to McGill. So she moved in the late 70s.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So all your family was in Masaka and Kampala up until 1972.

Mubina Willis

And then after that…

Bhavesh Kotecha

different continents…

Mubina Willis

and same with my dad’s side of family. Dad’s side of the family, he's one of 13 as well, so seven sisters [and] five brothers, four sisters in this country and everybody else Calgary, Vancouver, and Toronto. So after 1972 the gatherings that we had, we obviously didn't have. Came here and it was cold, it was so cold.

Bhavesh Kotecha

We’re talking about November 1972, one of the coldest Novembers on record I think it is.

Mubina Willis

It was ironic because we saw King Charles on the 2^nd of November (2022). I arrived in England on the 2^nd of November and then he doesn't give me chai!

Bhavesh Kotecha

So when you went on the 2^nd of November, this 2^nd of November, were you aware of the fact that it's 50 years…

Mubina Willis

50 years to the day, yeah I was, and it was a very emotional time for me, and that was the first ever time in my whole life I felt imposter syndrome.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay tell me more.

Mubina Willis

Everybody was talking to me, I don't know if you've heard of a lady called Shilpa Dattani, so she's a really good friend of mine, I've grown up with her, we went to school together, and she was like saying to me “Oh it’s going to be really good”. A couple of friends I was speaking with as well, and I got my invite and the thing that jumped out to me was it said Asian and I was like “Am I?”, and that was the first time I questioned “Am I?”, my identity, and that was the first ever time, 50 years had gone by, never ever thought about it, I was just Mubina, a black Ismaili, and this is the first time it stopped me in my tracks and I had a fear, I had a real fear, and it was my husband who said “What are you scared of? You are one of the Asians, you are a Ugandan who came, what's the problem?” and I was like “But am I an Asian?”, and it was a real epiphany moment.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Well it’s a big question

Mubina Willis

It was and is still because I've never not thought of myself as being Asian, but I've never thought of myself as being Asian.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Well it is a bit different for you because your heritage is slightly different to like your traditional stereotypical Ugandan East African Asian.

Mubina Willis

And it was real, and now I’m like I got there and I saw a lot of people that I knew, people that I'd grown up with, and there were some African people there as well and I thought “Yeah”

Bhavesh Kotecha

So then being there what did that…?

Mubina Willis

[It] made me feel comfortable. I was like “Do you know what, I'm not in that camp and I'm not in your camp, I’m in my own camp” because there was nobody there who looked like me, but I straddled both and I felt “Yes I know again where my place is, I know me again” and that was really hard the night before because I was just like “No I can’t go because I'm not part of this”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So can you tell me a bit more about the event that you went to?

Mubina Willis

It was a blur.

Bhavesh Kotecha

What was it about?

Mubina Willis

It was sort of being thanked by [King] Charles for the contribution that Asians have made, and the different passages that different Asians, in fact my old boss was there, I worked for him and never asked him the question but he actually had a family ,he’d hosted a family back in 1972, and it was like “Oh okay I worked for you for four years and I never knew!” but you never knew about me either so you know two way street. So there were lots of people telling their stories and the one thing that came out of it for me, and I've had a real good laugh and I still have a laugh with my family, everybody remembers it being grey and cold when they arrived and I was like “Yes I remember that!”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So just going back to that journey, what do you remember about that journey from Uganda?

Mubina Willis

So from Uganda, like I said it was my last birthday there, very scary, and then obviously you had the checkpoints. I remember the checkpoints, so mum and dad couldn't go back to Masaka to pick up stuff.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So they were Kampala at this point?

Mubina Willis

So this was all in Kampala, everybody congregated in Kampala to say byes byes and everything, and then the Army shut down the roads from what I understand. So mum and dad couldn't go back, so we stayed with my one of my aunts, in fact the aunt that moved to America. So we lived in their house for the last eight weeks of our time in Uganda from September [to October].

Bhavesh Kotecha

Wow so you couldn’t even go home?

Mubina Willis

No. Couldn’t go home.

Bhavesh Kotecha

They couldn’t go to their business?

Mubina Willis

So my dad was like “It doesn’t matter” whereas my mum was like “No no I need to go back”. So she went back with her younger brother and my dad was like “Your being silly it doesn't matter, it's just stuff” but this is the stuff that she came back with. She came back with a couple of plates from the shop, she just picked up 6 plates, in fact I’ve thrown them away now, a whole set, 6 of everything.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So your parents had a shop?

Mubina Willis

Yeah they were merchants, so they did general groceries, you know like a [general] store, food, household stuff.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And that was there main business?

Mubina Willis

Yeah so he had two of those.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So they basically just had to leave that behind.

Mubina Willis

Yeah whereas my mum was like “No no I need to go back and pick up” and it's like “Why?”

Bhavesh Kotecha

So what she picked up was memories.

Mubina Willi

Yeah so this is all [the stuff] she picked up, her wedding sari.

I had four aunts who [came here] in the 1960s, because they were rebels they decided to leave Uganda, so they came and they lived in Earls Court, and then from Earls Court one of my aunts bought a place in Putney. So on the [suit]case it says Puntey and I still remember SW15, that was where eventually as a family we all used to meet up because my grandparents lived there with her before they passed away. So yes that was Masaka and then coming to England.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Tell me about the actual journey to the airport to leave.

Mubina Willis

So I don't remember that, what I remember is there are two moments when we were in Kampala, the first one my dad would go every day to queue up, and he’d have a bag of peanuts, and he’d queue to try and get a passage out and he'd come back, and because I was too young I couldn't participate in the discussions but we'd sit with my cousin who actually lives in Houston now, the two of us we were six, we’re the same age, and would sit quietly because we thought if we’d make noise we’d get sent to bed. And I remember them talking about the fact that they couldn't get passage because dad had relinquished his British nationality and he had a Ugandan passport, but mum’s still hadn’t gone through so mum still had a British passport, so they could take them but then they couldn't take me.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And you could hear this discussion?

Mubina Willis

Yes and my dad was like “That's not acceptable, we have to go as a family we can't leave Mubina behind”. So people would make suggestions “You go and then we can send her” and my dad was like “No we go as a family or we don't go at all”. So I remember he went to the Canadian Embassy and they said “We can take the two of you, can't take the third because your daughter’s paperwork isn't proper paperwork”

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay and this is because you're adopted?

Mubina Willis

Because I'm adopted, but I'm adopted obviously the Indian way.

Bhavesh Kotecha

The Indian way being there’s no paperwork.

Mubina Willis

Yeah it’s paperwork, but it's not legal paperwork. So in the end I think it was the last week of October, my dad was at the British Consulate and the guy, I remember dad coming back and saying, this is not something I was there [to hear] but it’s just hearsay, and he's saying “Oh I've got the paperwork we can all go” and mums like “Oh great great. I need to go back to the shops” and he’s like “Well we don't have them” and she's like “What do you mean we don’t have the shops? I need to go back and get stuff” and that’s when the story came out that he gave the keys to the business in order to gain passage for me. So he could get passage for them two but he couldn't get passage for me, and obviously it was sort of like “Well if you give us something of value then all three of you can go and you can get stamped” and my dad was like…

Bhavesh Kotecha

“Just take the business”

Mubina Willis

Yeah “I've no need for it, what am I going to do with it”. So both his businesses he [gave away], and that was for me. When I did find out I was adopted it was a huge thing to have known what he did for me, because there were so many forces I felt at the time that were pushing me away from being the person that I was to the person they felt that I should be, does that make sense? So that's always steadied me in faith to sort of say “You know what I really was wanted, I was really needed, and I am really loved”

Bhavesh Kotecha

I mean it sounds like they weren't going to leave without you.

Mubina Willis

Yeah my dad and mum, it wasn't something for negotiation, it was non-negotiable. So for me it was just amazing and that's why today when people, especially within our community I have a cousin who is very prominent and he's black and he's adopted, his mum and my mum are sisters, masis, he wants the apology from everybody who's called him black, and I'm like “It happens out there, get over it, it's not your problem it's their problem if they see you…” black is something I can't get rid of I'm always going to be black till the day I die so it's not my problem that you see me as black, I am who I am, take it, if you don't like it leave it, walk away and he can't. He feels “No people should apologise, things should change, our children shouldn’t suffer like this” and I was like “But suffering is a passage, you come out of it and you come out stronger” and you say to people “You know what, fine that's what you think about me, that's fine, that's alright” because in the big outside world it’s the same, in fact it's worse, this is a more of a safe space and I’ve always said to my children, no offence, Asians are one of the biggest racist group of people, you know it is what it is.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Well this is something that isn't spoken about.

Mubina Willis

No it isn't, it isn't, and for me it's not a problem, and I've made sure that my children I hope it's not a problem. I know it exists for them, I know there are times when they’ll go to the mosque and people say to them “Oh it’s a private function” it’s like “Yep we know it’s a private function because I've organised it!”. So I've always said to the kids you've got to be able to stand up really tall and no matter how many tomatoes come your way bat them off and say “I belong, I've earnt this seat at this table”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And do you feel like you belong in this country?

Mubina Willis

Umm do I belong in this country? It is home for now but I'm very aware, especially post-Brexit, very aware of the dynamics of where society is going and it feels very similar to what Uganda was.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Oh god yeah. I mean obviously I had a quite reaction when you said that.

Mubina Willis

You did.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Because I know what you're saying.

Mubina Willis

And it's very subtle here compared to the African [hostility in the 1970s]. But my knowledge of that is post having left Uganda, post-my teens/20s, and that's something I'm just learning now in my 40s and 50s of why the Africans felt the way that they felt, and why the indigenous people felt the way they did towards the Asians and the whites.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So that is worth exploring a bit because when I’ve done these interviews what has come up is how the typical Ugandan Asian suffered as a result of some kind of racism, but what I don't know if it is spoken about that much about [is] the racism that black people in Uganda felt from the Asian community.

Mubina Willis

So again this is where my feet are in two camps. I will always say to anybody and everybody I am very very very privileged, I am extremely privileged to have the journey that I've had and the family that I’ve had. Yeah I b***h about my family, pain in the ass, but they are not as bad as some of the other half African half Asian friends that I have. I have one friend, I met her about 30 years ago, and her journey is nothing compared to mine, hers is the most traumatic, you know I hold my hands up to her and say “My journey in life and the racism that I've encountered is nothing compared to what you have encountered, nothing, mines a lap of luxury”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

What was it like when you got to the UK?

Mubina Willis

It was cold.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Apart from the cold…

Mubina Willis

Very hard, very hard. I remember I had to get a duffel coat with toggles and being a little princess I refused to wear it because it belonged to somebody else (laughter) so everyone was like “if you don't wear it you’re going to freeze to death” I was like “I’ll freeze to death I am not wearing that”

Bhavesh Kotecha

So where you at a resettlement camp?

Mubina Willis

We were. So first camp we went to was actually Kensington Church Street, Kensington. We were there in dorms for about six months.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Six months wow that’s actually quite a long time.

Mubina Willis

It was but [I] loved it and I think my snobbishness comes from there.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay so your memories of that…

Mubina Willis

of Kensington was amazing I had a lovely time in Kensington, and then we moved to West Malling in Kent. We lived there a long time as well, so we left camp, we were the last ones 1974.

Bhavesh Kotecha

That is quite late actually.

Mubina Willis

Yeah so I missed all that education.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay, what was life in the camp like day-to-day?

Mubina Willis

So I remember we had curtained alcoves, curtained areas, you had family units, there was no privacy. All the women would get together and do things, I remember my dad middle of November, wouldn’t have been our first November must have been our second November or subsequent Novembers, I remember it was November because he'd always go out and he’d go out in his short sleeves because it was sunny, and now thinking back that sun was not good for you in short sleeves, it's not Uganda. So things like that, the mums would all go strawberry picking to earn some money, my mum hates strawberries now, she will not eat a strawberry, strawberries and tomatoes, because those were the things she picked.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So it reminds her of that time.

Mubina Willis

Yeah and she's got dementia now, so she will not eat any red fruit that has connotations to strawberries or tomatoes.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So how do you think your mum and dad found it, did they ever talk about it?

Mubina Willis

They didn't and only clearing out our house last year did I appreciate what they must have felt, especially my dad, because my dad was coming up to retirement, he had planned his retirement plan to sell his businesses and travel, because he’d never travelled, so you know for him he was 56.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So was he born in Uganda, both your parents were born in Uganda?

Mubina Willis

Yeah but their parents weren't

Bhavesh Kotecha

Their parents were born in India?

Mubina Willis

From India. So he saw himself as Ugandan, hence he got his Ugandan passport and he saw himself retiring there.

Bhavesh Kotecha

I find that quite interesting because despite the trauma that a lot of people went through they still wanted to go back.

Mubina Willis

Yes my dad always thought he would go back.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Did he manage it?

Mubina Willis

No he never did, he suffered, and this is in my 50s realising that he suffered from post-traumatic stress, he ended up drinking, he just spiralled completely.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Do you think he settled in this country?

Mubina Willis

No he didn't, it was never home. You know he’d always talk about going back, we never had a television, we never had a telephone, our sofas were stuff that was given to us when we arrived. All the furniture I got rid off was all stuff that we got in 1974 when we moved to a little hamlet outside of Winchester called Colden Common. So we were in West Malling, from West Malling we went to Newbury, and then from Newbury we went to Winchester.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And that's where you settled for a bit?

Mubina Willis

We settled there for three years.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And you went to school there?

Mubina Willis

I went to school there.

Bhavesh Kotecha

What was the area like?

Mubina Willis

If you think St Albans is white! (laughter)

Bhavesh Kotecha

So it was a very white area, what do you remember about life?

Mubina Willis

Fear. That fear that you had in Uganda was there again, it's so traumatic. We lived in a maisonette, so ours was as the topmost in that and I remember Mr. and Mrs. living downstairs and she’d bang on the ceiling, her ceiling our floor, every time I walked across and this would be like 8pm, mum and dad would obviously still be working, and they were working in Southampton.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So what were they doing, what work were they doing?

Mubina Willis

So both mum and dad were working in a factory. You know the elements that you have in the kettles so my dad used to twist those.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay and you are saying they were in Southampton so that's a bit further away.

Mubina Willis

That is like a two hour journey from where we lived.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So I’m picturing two people that had their own business three years ago, had their own house with people working for them, and now you're living in a maisonette, in an unfamiliar country, having to work in factories 2 hours away, long hours.

Mubina Willis

And not having any of the foods. You know it was just…

Bhavesh Kotecha

your family is dispersed around Canada and America.

Mubina Willis

Yeah the nearest family we had was in London, in Putney.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay so still a couple of hours away.

Mubina Willis

Yeah a good 3-4 hours by national coach. So yeah I don't like going back down this journey because I can see how bad it was, it wasn't rose-tinted how people expect it to be “Oh you were in a lovely little village” yeah the village was nice if you're white with money, if you're black with no money, no contacts, no basis of even a friendship group, it's horrendous.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Well it sounds lonely.

Mubina Willis

Very lonely. It must have been more lonely for my parents because it was fear, because the [neighbours] would bang if we walked across, so even to this day my mum is like “Oh you mustn’t make noise” “No mum I live in my own detached house. This is why I lived in a detached house, I can make as much noise as I want” but yeah it's still ingrained, even up to me leaving home I couldn't make noise, it was like “You can't make noise because you’ll disturb people”, I'm entitled to make noise. So things like that and I think that's why we never had a television because my dad was too scared, but that’s thinking about it now, he was too scared to have that noise. I wasn't allowed to listen to music because it would be too noisy for the neighbours, even like food the [neighbours] would complain and so if mum did cook all the windows had to be closed.

Bhavesh Kotecha

It sounds like you did your best to not stick out.

Mubina Willis

Yes yes you did, you tried to blend in.

Bhavesh Kotecha

But you’re never truly going to blend in.

Mubina Willis

Not with a black child, no. You know for my mum and dad it must have been horrendous. I only appreciate it now as I think about it more and having my mum depend on me. I don't know how they just got up in the morning and just survived, and now I can appreciate my dad because everyone said “Oh your dad was so successful why couldn't he have done what he did there?” and I was like “Oh I don't know, maybe he just started drinking”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Your dad would have been how old?

Mubina Willis

He would have been in his early 60s. And to start again…

Bhavesh Kotecha

without the contacts, without the network, in an unfamiliar country…

Mubina Willis

[without the] language…

Bhavesh Kotecha

and also you’re 60…

Mubina Willis

do you want to start again…

Bhavesh Kotecha

with the trauma of your lifetime's work…

Mubina Willis

being taken away. So I can appreciate that now, but at the time I was very resentful.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So what was it like for you at that time, what was school like?

Mubina Willis

So mum and dad, they had a little bit money so they did put me in a private school for a while, but obviously that ran out, and yes private school was hard because again being the only black person in the class, because I was that much further behind, I’d not been to school for nearly two years, so that was really hard. I could speak English because I’d obviously been to a school in Kampala and Masaka where everything was taught in English but my written stuff was really bad, very poor. So I got a lot of flack for that but I'm very articulate so I could bounce that off and I still do, I'm still not as confident in written work as I am in articulation, I can articulate till the cows come home, really good at that, but that's my journey. So with my 3 [children] I've always made sure that my short fallings aren't reflected on them. So I’ve said to them “These are things that you really need to be good at, and these are your strengths go with them, and what you're not good at get better at it”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So you learnt a way to get through.

Mubina Willis

Yes yes and that's why, like you asked me about the racism or my place within society, do I feel do I belong here? The answer is it's transient, it's not an issue for me if I don't belong because I don't think I've ever felt that I belong anywhere.

Bhavesh Kotecha

That’s quite deep what you just said there.

Mubina Willis

I am me. I am me and if tomorrow I was told “You have to pack up and go” I'm like “Okay fine”. If I’ve got my kids and my family and their partners I'm okay, and if they choose not to, I think I would learn to survive because that's what I've done for the last 50 years anyway.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And that's definitely coming through, that you've had to survive from beginning.

Mubina Willis

Yeah it's like when we lived in Colden Common I remember my dad he had to have a drink, he had to drink, but some days he'd worked so hard at the factory that when he came home he just physically couldn't get up again and go to the pub so I would have to do that. I'd go and they’d be like “Well you are underage” and I was like “Yeah I know can I just have whatever 6-7 bottles”, how many bottles I needed to carry up with me, I've even got the bag, I'll show you the bag later. I put the bottles in that bag and I walked over, in that time I became very scared of the dark because I’d always be followed, because I had drink, and the young kids had known in their late teens that I had drink. I was only, what I must have been about 9, so I learnt places that I could hide so that they would walk past me and not know.

Bhavesh Kotecha

As a 9 year old you had to display that level of awareness.

Mubina Willis

Well just to survive, survival mechanism, and I’ve not shared this with anybody, there were young men who alluded to the fact if they ever caught me I would not come out of that alive. So for me it was just like “You know what Mubina you just hide behind those…” so fear of the dark was a huge thing for me and still some days I think “I can't get out” but I make myself because I’ve got three kids, at that time they were young, so I had to get out and say “You know what you just have to get up, get on with it girl, no one else is going to help you in this situation”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

If you think you were 9, you were a child, and in those three years you’d gone from celebrating your birthday when you were 6 to three years later having to…

Mubina Willis

dodge. That was harder than, if you come back to Uganda, you remember I said there were two moments in Uganda that when we left that were very prominent, the second moment was, one was my dad giving the money and the keys for his business, the second was my cousin and I, the army would do little spot checks of any children, indigenous children, that people were taking. So if they heard that you had a child that you'd adopted or you had an indigenous child they would come and they would ransack your home, we’d both be hidden in the rafters of the garage between the boxes and we were told “Do not make a single noise otherwise Mubina will be taken away”. So [he] would hold my hand and be like “Don’t say anything”. So that was another moment and when we were there back in 2015, and as a family we got together, and that was something that we both connected with “Do you remember?” I was like “Yes” “In the rafters” “Yes” now we can laugh but at the time I just remember the soldiers coming in and the bayonets…

Bhavesh Kotecha

and they were just poking around were they?

Mubina Willis

Exactly. But the family, my aunts and uncles had hidden us so well, so [he] was there to keep me company, I mean they wouldn't have done anything to him probably, but it was more for me so that I wouldn't feel lonely. So that is something I will always be grateful for, just being there looking after me, he was younger than me and he was looking after me.

Bhavesh Kotecha

I'm wondering what you were feeling at the time?

Mubina Willis

Scared, because they could have just taken me away.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And you were aware that they could just take you away?

Mubina Willis

Yeah I was told “You must not make any noise”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And you were under 6 then?

Mubina Willis

Yes I would have been about 5^1/2/6. ^So it was just like “You do not make any noise, you stay quiet” to the point where you don't breathe. So those are my 2 [moments]

Bhavesh Kotecha

They sound like big moments.

Mubina Willis

They were. I mean just talking about that the memories come back, the last night [in Uganda] we spent in a hotel and one of my dad's cousins actually drove us to the airport, but then I don't remember anything else. But those are my two moments of when we left Uganda that I still carry, and then coming here and experiencing also in the camps the racism.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Within the camps itself?

Mubina Willis

Oh yes yeah.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And who was that from?

Mubina Willis

From other Asians. And a few of them I see now as adults and put my plum in my mouth and I become very English because I know that articulation, that is my power, because I can articulate much much better than you and I know I can, so that's my survival mechanism when I meet them at family functions or gatherings.

Bhavesh Kotecha

To almost prove you're more English than them.

Mubina Willis

Exactly, it's like impostor syndrome. I was thinking that because everyone says to me “Oh let's wear a sari” and I was like “No no, I’m not wearing sari” so everybody else was in a sari and I went completely the other way.

Bhavesh Kotecha

But who are you rebelling against?

Mubina Willis

That was me, because that was my imposter syndrome in November, and I thought “Will I stand out even more wearing a Sari?” and everyone would be like “Well you’re not Indian, why are you wearing a sari?”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

The reason I ask that question is because if I had to associate one thing that’s very Indian as soon as I see it or even hear the word, it’s a sari.

Mubina Willis

Yeah, so if sleek my hair back, put make up on, I can pass off as a very dark Indian and no one would know.

Bhavesh Kotecha

But do you feel like you're one of the those?

Mubina Willis

No, and that's where I'm neither Indian nor am I black, I'm just me, and that's the identity I've had to create for me. So I can go into a room and I know instantly people, everyone's going to turn round and look at me, whether I'm in a room full of white people, black people, or Asians, and now I demand that because I know I'm different, and my differencenes is what's made me been able to survive, I don’t know if that make sense?

Bhavesh Kotecha

That does make sense. It’s sound like you have found a way to survive, but not only survive but actually thrive using your difference.

Mubina Willis

Yeah and my difference it's not something that weighs me down I’m like “Bring it on”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Is that something that you evolved into?

Mubina Willis

I've had to evolve even here in Bricket Wood. When we arrived here 23 years ago we were the only black family living on Black Boy Wood, we're still the only black family living on Black Boy Wood! (laughter). Because I say to people “Your address Madam” “Black Boy Wood” and they’re sort of like “Excuse me?” “Yes Black Boy Wood, yes it’s a real name” but I've made light of it because it is what it is. At the time when I moved here I didn’t even think anything of it until my friends were like “Do you realise that you live on a road called Black Boy Wood?” “Yeah and?” “Mubina you happen to be black” “Oh yeah”, penny dropped a bit late.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So you've evolved, and I can feel your strength coming through, and you have evolved into you, into Mubina. I'm wondering at what point that happened?

Mubina Willis

That 9 year old girl hiding in Colden Common, Winchester.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So your experience of the expulsion coming from Uganda to England really shaped you as a person even now.

Mubina Willis

Colden Common definitely did, the accent that I have, my mannerisms, my Englishness is all in that Colden Common era, just those four years I spent in Colden Common really have defined me as a person, having to hide, having to survive. It was only half a mile walk but that half a mile walk was a walk of death for me, if I missteped or if I didn't learn to hide in the right places I wouldn't be here today.

Bhavesh Kotecha

But you’d had to do that before, also the story you described about…

Mubina Willis

in the rafters…

Bhavesh Kotecha

in the rafters. So to hide and survive…

Mubina Willis

it's become, dare I say normal. Am I hiding now as a person? Is this not the real me? I have no idea. This is going to deep! (laughter)

Bhavesh Kotecha

As you were growing up with your parents in this country did they talk much about the events leading up to bringing you to the UK, was it a topic that was shared and discussed that often?

Mubina Willis

Not by them. So when I was about 10 [there was a] child benefit form, so from the age of 9 onwards I've done all mum and dad's paperwork.

Bhavesh Kotecha

You were like the interpreter?

Mubina Willis

Everything. So things that I didn't understand [I didn’t do] but child benefit I was like “Yeah I can do that, no problem” filled it in, gave it to my dad, and my aunt happened to be there that weekend and she's like “Well you haven't done this right” and I was like “What do you mean?” and she’s like “Well you're adopted aren't you?” my world just, you know when they say that feeling of your stomach just dropping out, that was the first time I just thought, everything just stopped, not even slow motion, it just stopped, and my world just went thud, I felt my stomach just go bumm and I just ran out, because I thought “No” and that was really traumatic, really traumatic. I just ran and ran and ran and ended up running into the next village called Twyford, which was a good three miles away, down a country lane, and I just thought “Why me?” and that still to this day sometimes when I get down, that's why I don't think about it, and I think “You know what just keep going, it's not important” but at that time it was really important and I remember this aunt saying to me, when my dad eventually got me home, I remember my dad sitting with me in the fields saying “You are my sun and my moon, you are my world, whatever everybody else says it’s not important, you are somebody we wanted and we need you, we need you to come back” but again those are words I didn't appreciate until I had my children, and later on in my 50s now.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So you've had lots of reminders of the fact that people don't feel like you belong.

Mubina Willis

Yes and that's family. So that's why I think people outside you can throw as much s**t as you want, it has no bearing [if] people who are supposedly supposed to be family can do that to you, not all family, you know I've got cousins who I know would die for me, and uncles and aunts who would die as well, but their kindness is overshadowed by one or two, and it's very sad that those one or two have such a prominent place in my life, and I try really hard not to go down that road because I think “You know what you’re just one or two compared to the other 13/14/26 who have been my rock and have always stood by me”, maybe not as much as I'd like them to stand by me, but they've been there, hence that's why I'm very close to my children, because I feel regardless of how nice people have been there's always been that assumption that blood is thicker than water, so I’m like “I know where I stand, that's no a problem, I'm happy”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Okay so fast forward to your life today with your with your children how has your experiences of the journey, of your time in this country, of being adopted, of being half black half Asian, how's that influenced who you are as a person now and with your own children?

Mubina Willis

I hope I've given a good standing to be able to have a place in society and say “You know what, we are who we are, we have a dual heritage and we can see both sides” and I’m very proud of who I am, and if they choose to identify as Ismailis, and I want them to hopefully identify as being black Ismailis because that's what I've always said to them “You are black, no one can take that away from you, unfortunately or fortunately, no one can, that is who you are. So you find yourself a niche and say I am a black Ismaili” and that's been really important to me.

Bhavesh Kotecha

The identity that comes through really strongly for me, on the receiving end, is your Ismaili identity which transcends the colour of your skin, or any sort of identity based on skin colour.

Mubina Willis

Yes and that's something that I've created for me because I had to, I don't have siblings, I've got got loads of cousins as you can see from the photographs, but ultimately Colden Common, Winchester, even moving to Leicester and that was horrendous I was just like “What have you done to me?” (laughter)

Bhavesh Kotecha

I don’t think we need to explain much more about Leicester, anyone hearing this would know what you mean.

Mubina Willis

I mean Winchester I went to an all-girls school, 1,000 girls, all white, one black girl, me, take that to Leicester, 1,000 children all black or Asian, it was like “Where have all the white people gone! This is so wrong”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And this just shows how identity is so complicated.

Mubina Willis

Yeah and I hated Leicester. I spent the longest time there, but I hated it, I could not wait to leave I was chomping at the bit. I couldn't find a place for me there, I just couldn't. I've got some lovely friends, there were eight of us we all hung around together, love them to bits.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So those friends what were they?

Mubina Willis

All Gujarati, Ismaili friends as well, but again, I don't know if this is an Asian thing, or an Ismaili thing, or just a Mubina thing, I have my white friends, I have Ismaili friends, I have my Gujarati friends.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And this takes me back to the vision of those three places of worship.

Mubina Willis

Definitely and those friends never meet, they never meet, and in my latter [years] like in my 40s and my 50s my Ismaili have taken a dominance.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And that was your first identity?

Mubina Willis

Yes yes and so Leicester I pick up and then I let go, and I pick up and I let go, because something will happen and I think “No I don’t agree with that” and I let it slide and then I think “No, you know those are my friends who stood by me because they saw a different Mubina now to my Ismailis friends” my Ismaili friends saw this immaculate, well educated, not quite, but they saw this person, my school friends saw the real me, real rebel, I was a little s**t and they saw that real s**t, but that was my sort of get out, I could vent, and then I’d go to mosque and I’d be perfect.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So if I put a ending slogan to this, I would say Mubina has evolved to survive.

Mubina Willis

She has and I'm still surviving, even with my own business today, with my children, it's a journey. Life has been full of laughter, love, but it’s a journey, and the last 35 years have been where I think I've evolved into the best person that I can possibly be, there is room for improvement, but my husband has been amazing and again I'm really privileged, if it wasn't for [my husband] I wouldn't be the person I am today, because if he hadn't given me that space to rebel, to grow, and to nurture our children, I don't think I'd be here. Hand on heart I think if I married an Asian I would have had a real chip on my shoulder about being the person I am, or I was, it would have made me into a shell I think, maybe I'm wrong I don't know, but the pressures would have been so great, to have my hair straight, to be Indian looking and do all the Indian things, whereas now if I choose to have my hair straight I can choose to have my straight, I don’t have to, if I want to wear a sari I can if I don’t want to wear a sari I don’t have to, does that make sense? I am me on my terms, nobody’s terms, no one dictates to me where I need to be or how I need to be, only Mubina does that, and that’s my survival, and again [my husband] has helped immensely, enormously, to [create] who you see today.

Bhavesh Kotecha

How has it been today doing this interview?

Mubina Willis

There's been times when I’m thinking pfff, I've brushed over it but it's been traumatic, you know it's been I don't want to delve.

Bhavesh Kotecha

I mean it's not a therapy session, but it almost turned into one.

Mubina Willis

So I don't want to delve, because it's my survival.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And I'm wondering, we talked a lot about survival, and whether that's ingrained in you because of the fact that you literally had to survive. When people talk about life or death situations sometimes it's not really, but in your situation I think there were times when it was life or death.

Mubina Willis

I think talking about that just made me realise, my first trip to Kampala that would have been a survival, the chewing gum survival, and that's what it's been hasn't it survival, I've survived, found techniques and mechanisms to survive, and that maybe is wrong but it's worked for me. I’m thinking about all the health issues I could have because of the survival mechanisms I’ve used. But I feel I'm not a bad person, I feel I'm a good person at heart, I’ve got three beautiful children, I've got a lovely husband, got some really close friends, you can be included in our friendship group as well, but lots of positive has come out of that survival.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And life feels safe now from what’ve you said, or does it?

Mubina Willis

There is inherent in me a button of self destruct and I do sometimes things that people will look and think “Are you stupid?”, and I don't know if that's just my insecurities, like [my husband] can’t understand why I need to have so much food but I need to have that food because I know what it's like not to have food “Do we need to have such a big fridge?” “I do”. But that’s something, because I know having not had it coming into this country, like I hate being cold, like when we lived in Colden Common we couldn't afford to have heating, we had one fire, a coal fire, but we could only put that on after 8pm when mum and dad got in from work. So I was a latch door key child, I’d come in from school, there would be nobody home, that's why when I come home I put all the lights on because I don’t want it to be dark, I want light and welcome, those are little things that are important to me, just having heat in the house, I don't care about [the climate] crisis, it doesn’t bother me, I just want heat! (laughter). It’s 2025 and I still need heat. So it's those little things that I think only somebody who's gone through that journey will appreciate, like the food, heat, you could take everything away, all this can be taken away and I'll be like “Okay that's fine. As long as I know that my children are safe and my husband is safe”.

Bhavesh Kotecha

And that sounds like your parents with you.

Mubina Willis

Yes and that's so important to me. Things are just things, I say to the kids “It doesn't matter it's broken, we can buy, you can work hard, you can buy”. And the amount of money my dad had, if we could have transposed that we would have been millionaires here, but it wasn't meant to be, and it's fine, but we were still the three of us, [we] were together, we were three of us in Colden Common together, three of us in Winchester together, three of us in London together, all that counts, it was always the three of us, and even going to Leicester it was still the three of us. The number of times my dad has fought for me, even within the smaller community being an Ismaili, I only appreciate that now and I didn't at the time because I thought he was just being very controlling, but he wasn't, he was protecting me, even within the family he was protecting me, and that's something I will always be grateful to him, and I've never had the chance to say “Thank you”. Even with my mum, never had the chance to say “You know what, I only appreciate what you've done today, not when I was going through that journey, I didn't see it”, hindsight is beautiful.

Bhavesh Kotecha

I think this [is a] lovely image of your mum and dad

Mubina Willis

I mean imagine, I know everyone that’s about today says “Everyone wants a black baby”, but in the 1960s it would have been horrendous.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yeah they sound like remarkable people.

Mubina Willis

Yeah I take my hat off to them, that's why I still look after my mum because you know what, she must have had it really hard, being fair, pretty, “Why have you got a black child?” that kind of thing. So yeah I take my hat off to them, they've been amazing parents and I hope I'm half of that with mine. I don’t know I’ll let you know.

Bhavesh Kotecha

It’s coming to the end now, is there anything else that you want to share about your experience of Uganda, this country, that we haven't talked about?

Mubina Willis

All the bad things have always had a balance with all the positives. There's been lots of people who influenced me, like in Winchester in Colden Common, who helped enormously. I was saying to the children there was a guy of Caribbean descent who used to pick up mum and dad so they wouldn't have to go in the bus, change two buses to go to Southampton, so he did that for a few years. So along our journey there have been lots of Samaritans who have helped.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Acts of kindness along the way.

Mubina Willis

Definitely definitely. Everywhere, for every bad thing there's always been something good that's happened, and that's what England has taught me, that yes, there is a bad element, there is a negative element, but there's always something good and you always try and look for the good. So yeah you asked me the question “Do I feel settled here?” for now, if things changed then yeah it’s change, life is like that, it's just one journey, two journeys .

Bhavesh Kotecha

One very long journey across continents.

Mubina Willis

Yeah you just keep going, keep smiling, and say to the kids “You know what, it's not the number of times you fall, it’s the number of time you get up” and I’ve learnt that.

Bhavesh Kotecha

So as we’ve gone through have you realised that before, how many times you've actually had to just survive?

Mubina Willis

No no hadn’t until you said I was like “Really? I suppose I have” and that's made me think yes, but I hope it hasn't made me a lesser human being, because most people they see you as survival. That's why, coming back to the boat people, what’s that all about? I have a lot of empathy for them because their journey, again I am so privileged, my journey is nothing compared to theirs, mine was a breeze in the park, it's like I’m just skipping along Alice in Wonderland it’s that kind of thing, and you know when people make a big thing about [immigration] I’m like “Do you know what they’ve had to go through?” and especially people of Ugandan descent when they say that I want to slap them I’m like “You are very privileged, stop it”. Yeah and survival, I don't think until you said, I didn't see it as a survival it was just something I just did, you get up and just do it, I hope that helps. I don't know if it’s a Ugandan journey, it was just a lot about me wasn’t it, sorry.

Bhavesh Kotecha

Well it is all about you, it’s supposed to be about you. And thank you it’s been an absolute privilege to do this with you.

Mubina Willis

No thank you. It's made me think. It’s been my privilege to share, I’ve never shared, never sat down and talked to [someone].