Anushka Sonpal

Do you want to start by saying who you are?

Uma Ravalia

Yeah sure I’m Uma Ravalia, I used to be Uma Vaja, I came to this country when I was nine years old and the very first time that I heard about it I was actually in school, I used to go to Magwa Primary School. At the time I didn't understand what was going on, I was too young, but all I know is there was a lot of humdrum around me the teachers were all quite anxious and so I knew something was going on and then we were just told to go home early and I thought “Oh okay this is something quite serious”. And then where we lived was in an affluent area, we were really privileged back home when my dad was quite wealthy, we had a massive house and we used to have big wrought iron gates and we never closed them but this day that I went home the gates were closed and I thought “Oh well okay this is something a bit more serious”. So then I went in and both my parents were at home, my mum didn't work anyway as a lot of women didn't back home, and my dad used to have his own business, he was a car mechanic, so he owned his own garage and he happened to have been home that day so I thought “Oh this is a bit more [serious]” but all I know is there was a lot of anxiety and the atmosphere around me from my parents was that of turmoil and restlessness, with older sisters, I’m the youngest of eight by the way so my parents were that much older than me, two of my sisters were married by then and I got home and it was like “Oh my God”. So I knew something was not quite right but all I remember [in] the days and the weeks that followed is that for me personally, it was exciting it was like a new adventure “Oh we’re going to England”, because England was something that people spoke about, and for me I thought “Oh this is really exciting” but of course the mood around in the home had changed.

Uma Ravalia

So my home was always of course a happy home, my parents always made it so, even though there were eight kids, that’s a lot of children to bring up, but it was always a happy home and suddenly it wasn't. My dad was making all the preparations, and at 9 what do you understand, and because I am the youngest I was always mollycoddled by my older siblings, always, even to this day they spoil me, so I couldn't understand it and then all of a sudden our belongings were being given away, and then all the packing started because as you know we were given 90 days. I know that also some people around us didn't have British passports others were frantically trying to get passports so they could leave by November. My brother, the eldest brother, he was actually already in the UK, not many years before he’d come here to study, he was in the RAF, tried his hand at accounting, he did all sorts, so we kind of did have that safety net, so that was one good thing. So my dad, the way he started his business and things, he came over from India, he was one of two, just him and his brother, he was the younger one, but he came over when he was about 16 and he came over literally on a yacht and it took him months. He used to tell us “It was rough, the sanitation was poor” but you know now looking back on it I think, at 16 to have done that was admirable, really admirable, with no one, he went to Kenya. Have you heard of the Madhvani brothers?

Anushka Sonpal

Yeah

Uma Ravalia

So he worked for them first and then he worked for somebody in our community. He used to say to us that he didn't have a house, he used to sleep in lorries, get food from the little wages that he earned, when we came to this country that's when he started telling us. So he came here with nothing in his pocket and the same when he arrived from India to Kenya.

Anushka Sonpal

To Uganda?

Uma Ravalia

Yeah so he went from India, first to Kenya, and I think for about two years until he was 18 he then just carried on working and earning money, and then he went to Uganda, now who he stayed with there I cannot remember. Unfortunately even when we came to the UK I wasn't really too interested as I am now about our history and I wished I had been, because I could have asked lots of questions. So he then slowly by slowly, he built [up] some money and assets, he moved from Kenya to Jinja, so to Uganda, he then bought a small house and then through families met my mum and my mum was born in Tanzania, Dar-es-Salaam, and they married, I don't know what age actually, I've got their marriage certificate somewhere which is really nice. So they married but they lived in a small house somewhere in Uganda and then eventually, and my mum never ever worked in Uganda as I mentioned before, and my dad eventually due to hard work and perseverance had our house built , saved up money, and all us kids came along, busy parents with eight kids, it's so many, so many of us, so there's six girls and two boys.

Anushka Sonpal

So lovely now though I bet.

Uma Ravalia

It is yeah, especially when we all get together. And then my dad's brother, his younger brother, and my grandfather lived in India, they were still there, but my dad then called them over and they lived with us. As mentioned our home was on acres of land, when I said we were wealthy, we had a tennis court it was really amazing, but for me it was nothing different because obviously when you've grown up with that you don't know any different, and then to all of a sudden from that, just overnight almost, to anxiety, worries. My parents would be whispering, my sisters would be whispering, and obviously they wanted to keep things away from me and my younger siblings, so the way we are is the last three [siblings] is me and then I've got two other sisters who are older than me, so all the kids have got about 1 1/2 years between us. So there were three of us so we were still all quite young 9/10/11. So the older ones, two were married but there was one older one Saroj she tried to keep a lot from us. There were a lot of army vans going around all the time, we had a curfew. It's like overnight my life just kind of turned, and in a way and in the most selfish way I'm glad that I was nine and I wasn't old enough to understand and experience what my parents were going through, girls were getting taken away, they were being raped, they were getting kidnapped, the army people would just go and knock on random doors and although my dad was very influential he knew a lot of people in the government. But still one night this truck had actually come and knocked on our door, I’ll always remember my mum standing by the window. So you know whilst I was nine I didn't understand the history, what the news was about, but of course the fact that the home had changed, the environment, the whole dynamics of the household had changed, obviously you almost become a bit subdued and even at nine you kind of step back, because you almost know that you mustn’t be naughty, not that I was a naughty child, but you do take a step back because you know something's going on and you mustn’t trouble your parents, it's weird it's really weird. So my dad was actually taken outside and a rifle was pointed to him and I remember we were just standing by the window and it was really traumatising and my mum of course was absolutely besides herself, and like I said two of my sisters were married and my eldest brother was already here [in the UK], and so was another brother of mine, they were both here, so basically it was us three [younger] sisters and then the older sister. So it was all kind of left to her to deal with my parents and the awful situation and catalogue of nightmares suddenly happening. Anyway fortunately the army just kind of left, I think my dad explained who he was and fortunately they left but it kind of, clearly me being upset, it leaves a scar it does you know, it does. So anyway the days and weeks that followed all I remember is we were packing our belongings my parents were trying to mail loads of our parcels over to the UK, and we also had our own business as well. I remember going there, playing there as a child we used to have a bench there and it was a garage, lorries used to come in with little coke bottles, and what I always remember is sitting on this bench having a coke bottle with a straw, like silly little memories, and also every evening, or maybe at the weekends, we'd always go down to the pier because Uganda was on the River Nile. So we’d go down to the pier, there was a lot of greenery and my dad would always give us, now I don't know if it was 1 cent or 10 cents I think it might be 10 cents, and we’d buy the peanuts in a newspaper, roasted peanuts, and it's almost like you can still smell that. We used to do all that, we used to go for picnics to Mabira forest which was I think just before the Kenyan border, so we'd always go for picnics, so that's what I'm saying it was really a happy childhood, and I now know that a lot of people couldn't do that. And we used to go to this hotel, it was called Amber Court Hotel, my dad used to take us there, both my brothers went swimming there, eventually we would have also been going there swimming but of course had to leave then. We'd go there and my dad would buy us this ice cone. And what else do I remember, my school, I remember walking to school just being a happy happy girl, having friends. My dad was always very protective of us daughters, I think as you know in some Asian communities girls are not too welcomed nor wanted, but with my dad even though he had six it was like, oh my god we were his absolute world, he was very protective. I know there were some uncles who were trying to kind of help us get out of Uganda, so I think it was November the first week of November, I can't remember the date, the 5^th or the 6^th or something which was the deadline everyone had to leave, we actually left on the 26^th of October, so it was quite close to the end. And it wasn't until after that I realised why, because when I said my dad was quite influential, he was actually trying to help lots of other families, he never mentioned that to us, and it's again not until we came here, he actually never even told us that, it's that I learned it from [other] people.

Anushka Sonpal

So he's really humble.

Uma Ravalia

Yeah very, he was, he always had said to us you know “Don't ever boast about what you have because one day you've got it, one day you haven't” and he said “Money is nothing, enjoy what you have and be kind”, and things like that, and my mum she was so humble, she wouldn’t say boo to a fly. So even like back then she took care of the kids, the house, my dad used to entertain quite a lot so she would always be doing things, and she kept the house so tidy like even when we moved here with so many kids her house was just absolutely spotless, and you think how did she do it but she did. So then the day came for us to fly to the UK, it was very worrying, we went to Kampala overnight, I’d never worn a cardigan in my life because of course Uganda is on the equator and it’s extremely hot, but in Kampala in the evenings it did used to get cold, and so what I remember is my dad had bought me this cardigan, a grey cardigan, I was so excited wearing that, and then we stayed at a relatives house in Kampala and then the next evening we went to Entebbe airport. So all I remember is my dad and my mum just holding onto us for dear life, obviously because we were girls, there were four of us, and he was so worried that we would be kidnapped, raped, and whatnots and my mum used to suffer with high blood pressure and her blood pressure went so high at the airport, we had to call someone in, my dad was worried. So what he was worried about is that if she had to be taken to hospital or something, and that means we miss our flight and we were of course very close to end of the expulsion [deadline]. I had never seen my dad so worried, so much in anguish. So what I remember, I then knew this was serious something just wasn't right, and there was loads of these guys with these machine guns and rifles, and they were just hovering and tall, and I was young so everyone was kind of towering above you, and then people were being searched, and then my mum having to go through this after her [blood pressure] had gone high, it was just awful. And then one of my sisters, because we were only allowed to leave with an equivalent of £50, I think that money was with one of my sisters, so I don't know how or why she actually just went through, and my dad thought she’d been taken and he's like “Oh my god where is she where is she?”. But anyway he could see her and then he huddled us, and luckily for us we got through and my mum’s blood pressure had gone down, and she was on medication, and then we got on the plane and came over. But I'd never seen both my parents, so sad, you know it's like building up an empire and this is my home, and if someone told me to lock it and walk away it would be so unbelievably devastating, now I know, but I didn't understand it at the time. And now that I do understand I think, for them to have built it from nothing and then just to walk away, and that's not just moving from one town to another, you are moving to a country where, the weather is different, the language is different, the whole culture is so different, I mean modernised western [culture] to where we were, it was all so different. So now if someone told me to do that, my thoughts would be, now I know what my parents went through, and now I understand sad looks and the worry on their faces, the anxiety and anguish. So we landed at Heathrow and although both my brothers lived here, we’d never been separated from my parents, like I said with us daughters we didn't actually get much exposure, we weren't allowed to go anyone’s house unless it was with my parents.

Anushka Sonpal

Protective

Uma Ravalia

Yeah very protective. So we came here and then my brothers of course, they didn't have a lot of money, and my dad had to leave everything behind so it must have been so difficult for both him and my mum, it was literally going from riches to rags honestly, and then you know I said two of my sisters were married, so one was living in Kenya and the other one actually lived here in the UK as well, and she was married and she lived in Leicester. So to this day she's like a mum to me, her name is Rama, and so the three sisters, the younger sisters, we went to live with her and her husband and she herself had only been there for a few years in Leicester and they were also trying to make ends meet, and this I tell her all the time because I'm so grateful to her, we came here in October and it was so cold. So going back, coming off the plane the first thing that hit me was the cold, so that excitement of wearing that cardigan was out the window, because it was far too cold, that cardigan wasn't protective, of course we didn't have coats or anything, it was freezing in those days, 50 years ago the weather was so extremely cold, that hit me, and everything was different, of course all of sudden you go from in Africa, from black people to Caucasians, white people, and it's not what you're used to, it's and that's not me being prejudiced or racist it's just my recollections of a nine year old to go Uganda to the UK. We went to live in Leicester for three months, my sister bless her and her husband, I'll always be grateful to them, they bought us coats and I know that they were also barely making ends meet, they bought us these coasts, [they were] pink coats I still remember to this day what they were like, they bought us nightdresses, and if I could draw properly I could draw those nightdresses for you, Rama and her husband Dinesh they were just amazing, for me I missed my parents a lot. So it’s almost like going back, when we heard the news that day, when I was in school in Uganda, being excited to, although it was still living with my sister, but you know they weren't my parents and my parents were always protective over us, as I mentioned I was the youngest so I was very close to both my parents, not that my other siblings weren’t, but being the youngest I just had such a bond with both of them. So I really missed them, I absolutely missed them like crazy. But my sister and my brother-in-law were amazing, absolutely amazing, they looked after us well. Everything that my parents could have done, they did. So eventually my parents rented a house in New Malden, and that's when I went to school. My first school in the UK. I kind of adapted to the life in the UK quite quickly, I was probably really one of the very lucky ones, because when I hear stories of other people, they did have a lot of racism and abuse targeted at them, I fortunately didn’t, and when I think back now I think that I was one of the few really lucky ones not to have experienced that. I absolutely loved my school lunches, I used to really look forward to eating them. As a Hindu you’re not supposed to eat beef, I kind of didn't stick to that, I ate whatever was given to me at school and I carried on eating it. But what did hit me was the cold, it was bitterly cold, and as time went on of course the coats that my sister and my brother-in-law had bought for us, I had outgrown. And then what I do remember is going from stability in Uganda, living in this one house for nine years. Then in the UK we lived in New Malden for I don’t know how long, and then we couldn’t afford the rent, so we then moved to Luton to this house in Weatherby Road, god Anushka that house was awful, there was damp in the walls, no heating, we couldn’t afford to have too much hot water due to lack of affordability.

Anushka Sonpal

Did you change schools as well?

Uma Ravalia

Yeah so I had to change school. So it was a lot of upheaval going from stability, to just being uprooted like a nomad, and we stayed in Weatherby Road for I don’t know how long. Basically there were the three sisters and then the elder sister, and then one of my brothers also came to live with us, it was almost like 2 1/2 bedrooms, with the damp in the walls, mould, our landlord was not nice at all, the bathroom was awful. And having gone from a massive house, on acres of land, it was really awful to live in this small damp house, and then again my dad couldn't afford to buy us clothes until our grant came through, and I could see the damage it was doing to both of them, my mum started to work and my dad was devasted, he almost felt like he'd failed her, and by this time of course I was a bit older so I could understand a lot more, and I could understand the conversations and my mum used to say to him “It's okay”, of course they were a couple and they do things together like running the home, but she now had to work, she ran the house, she brought us kids up, she cooked, how she did that I have no idea, no idea whatsoever, it must have been so very difficult for her.

Anushka Sonpal

Where did she go to work?

Uma Ravalia

She worked from home, they used to do these like furry hats, they used to have a plastic string with bobbles on the end. So they used to be delivered home, but of course it was faux fur, so she used to have to sew the bobble on the end, her fingers used to bleed, and I think that’s when my dad thought he had failed her. But my mum being the amazing woman that she was, she just carried on, she never complained, she never complained that she had do that, and I know where the fur was just faux so a lot of it would also come off, so it gave her some nasal issues, but again she never complained, her fingers were sore, and she just carried on. And there were times when sometimes I'd come home for lunch and my parents wouldn’t be home as they were battling with the landlord to sort out the damp and they would have to attend lots of meetings, so I would go back to school and I wouldn’t have had lunch sometimes and be hungry. But it was amazing that, I think the kind of upbringing that they gave us I will always be indebted to them, they did what they could for us, and when they couldn’t I knew never to moan, never to complain, because mum and dad always did the best [they could]. So yeah it was cold and sometimes I’d go back school, I'd be hungry, and then when we moved to Luton we couldn’t afford for me to have the school lunches until the grant came through, and I’d go back to school hungry and I could smell their school lunches and be thinking “I want to eat that food”. Eventually the grant came through and we were able to buy me a coat, some proper shoes and have school lunches from that too. In Africa where we would be having new clothes and toys and things like that, I went from that to not having anything really, but again it was fine. All I remember is my sister Saroj, she worked and she once bought me this teddy. I’d gone shopping with her somewhere and she’d bought me this teddy and she said “This is for you” and when she’d brought it home I was so excited, and it wasn't until years later that I learned how she bought that for me. So we lived far away from the town, and she used to work in Sainsbury's, she used to walk it and saved her bus fares and she brought me this teddy, oh that was just amazing, you know just to have a toy, it felt really amazing. She supported my parents with the hardship that they were having to endure, she was their rock and guided them as her grasp of the English language was good. She sacrificed so much and I will always be grateful to her too.  So then we moved from Luton, to another house in Luton, and then again things got really difficult, and then we moved to Slough, then from Slough we moved to Langley, and then from Langley we moved to Hounslow. We had lots of family issues and hence that's why we couldn't stay in one place.

Anushka Sonpal

So was all that in the period of your schooling?

Uma Ravalia

Yeah schooling finished in Luton and then by the time we moved to Slough I was working, so I worked in Maidenhead for a couple of years, until we moved again. We moved to Hounslow on Whitton Road, and it was from there I got engaged and married, and then even after that my parents moved again to another flat in Hounslow, they were given a ground floor flat, and sadly they both passed away, that flat that was there final place, and actually my mum being my mum, she made it an absolutely lovely place. So moving around I became very resilient, you kind of get used to making friends and then leaving, and then making friends again and then leaving. But I think what helped me was my parents, I couldn't praise them enough, I really couldn't. My mum did have some gold jewellery which she had managed to bring with her from Uganda, a very small amount, and I know in those days they used to sell it to get money to buy things which they couldn’t otherwise afford, and I remember when in Langley I was the last girl at home, and my parents knew that I'd be quite lonely. I remember my mum sold her gold and they bought me a TV, I remember I’d just come home and there was a TV there, and they were so excited Anushka, they were so excited to have bought me that, and you know it was things like that, not through fault of their own [but] because of the expulsion life turned out the way that it did unfortunately, but they always made sure that we were as happy [as possible], they sacrificed, they sacrificed so much, and for my dad the whole expulsion thing was awful, but he never complained about leaving our house, locking it up, the business. All he'd always say is “I left with my dignity and I left with my daughters intact” and that was all I wanted, to his last breath that's what he said, his very last words [were] that “My daughters are happy” and obviously when I grew up, I know that some parents in the Asian community where there [were] daughters were not [happy], and when I saw that with my dad and my mum they loved us equally to my brothers, of course my mum was a mother no matter what she loved us all of us, they were just amazing parents. Then in later years people would tell me stories, when we went to events and weddings, I learned that my dad had actually helped so many people, and I think I’m actually pleased that he didn't tell us, because to me they’ll always both be on a pedestal, but it’s the fact that he took something good out of a bad situation, and it was a really bad unimaginable situation. But he didn’t complain, he never ever complained, and even my mum she was used to never having to go without and all of a sudden to go without, being in this country, they had language barriers to make matters worse. My mum again was amazing, in those days we used to have the a milkman, so she’d get us to write out little notes like “Milkman please don’t deliver any milk today” or “Please deliver two extra pints”, and then she’d copy that onto a piece of paper and then she’d put it [outside], I mean the way they both adapted to the life of this country, wow, it was amazing, absolutely amazing. You know Anushka for me, I’ll repeat this, for me what was so important is that they never complained, you know I find myself sometimes now complaining to my kids about, something is this or something is that, but with neither of them it was never [that], they had to go from doing shopping and carrying heavy bags, and back home [in Uganda] we used to have [a] nanny, we used to have a driver, we had cars, and our driveway could have about 20 cars parked it was so huge. So even from my mum, to have gone from that, to what she did it's really really sad, so sad. So they both sadly passed away but you know they were very dignified people, they made sure that they taught us a lot, we got a lot of strength from my dad, and my mum it was how to adapt to life. Even after getting married, I was 19 I was so young, and I was quite westernised so having come to this country when I was 9, although my parents were much older, because I'm the youngest, the way of life here compared to Africa was so different, but my mum adapted and she in turn taught us that as well. They have both sadly passed away and here I am so many years later on, I've got two lovely children, two gorgeous grandsons, and happily married.

Back home because I was nine I've got a lot of happy memories and then eventually, sorry I should have also said, that my dad also got my grandfather to come to live with us [in Uganda] but sadly I don't remember him, I've got pictures of him but I don't remember him, and also my uncle whom I absolutely adored, but sadly he had to leave, but he went to India when the expulsion was announced ,he went back to India because that's where his family was, because he only came [to Uganda] on his own, so he had to go and my grandfather passed away by the time the expulsion happened. So it was not nice but in comparison to some of the others I feel like we were perhaps blessed, we were lucky.

Anushka Sonpal

Have you been back to Uganda?

Uma Ravalia

No.

Anushka Sonpal

That’s really common I hear.

Uma Ravalia

Yeah and the reason is, which is common, I had a really privileged childhood, again if I could draw really well I could draw my house for you, and I don't want to shatter my dream of that, and I've got some really wonderful memories living there with my parents. I know initially I said that it was such a lovely happy environment, and then to go to that, and now that I am of course much older, more mature, to understand things, I think it would be traumatising for me, and I don't want to shatter that dream. But my children have said that they’d like to go, so I don’t know, if I haven’t been back for 51 years, am I likely to? Never say never in life.