Hari Sonpal

So do you just want to start about your early childhood in Uganda and growing up?

Shobhana Sonpal

Right I was born in Uganda in 1945 and I am [the] third child in the family and we lived next door to my aunt and uncle and their six children, so we were all brought up together like a family. We had a very small three bedroom house, no two bedrooms and a lounge, all the children slept in one room, everything was fine, and on the other side my uncle and aunt lived. Then on one side we had neighbours, they were Sikh by religion which is a different religion to Hindus, but we were very good friends, the [families] got on very well and we used to eat at each other’s houses. We would be in each other’s homes there were no formalities, the children and I would play together, we [did] a lot of things together but essentially the family life was very important. My father was quite strict, quite autocratic, but also he was very interested in education so he made sure that we were all enrolled in school in time and we all had education, and I get the love of reading from my father, because my father read a lot, and the one thing I remember very clearly about my father was at nine o'clock in the evening you could not disturb him because he would have his radio on and he would be listening to BBC Overseas. And my father was a self-made man, his parents, his father died when he was only ten years old, so he had to support his family. Initially my grandmother had a little bit of money in India but because she was on her own with four children and she didn't really know how to look after the money, extended family, they just sort of fleeced her out of money. So my grandmother was quite poor but my father came to Uganda when he was about 20 years old, but just before he came to Uganda he [got] married. My mother was only 13 and my father was 20 but my father left my mother in India, he came to Uganda he went to small place called Mbarara and started working with somebody in a shop and then he built up his business and then he moved to Kampala eventually, I can't remember when he moved to Kampala I think it must have been before my sister was born my sister was born in 1942, elder sister. So by that time they had moved to Kampala and then my father got his two brothers and his mother from India and brought them, settled his sister, [she] was already married so she came with her husband and they lived next door to us but my father was the breadwinner within the family he helped everybody and although, as I said he had hardly any education, he made sure the children were well educated and he joined all the PTAs and took interest in the education. And one thing I remember, I think I was about 10, and I had a really bad test result in school and all he did was, he didn't say anything, he just came at lunchtime, I remember clearly it was lunchtime, I came [home] so he just sort of said to me “Come and sit down” and said “Make a list of things you need” and I said “Well where am I going?” “From now on you're going to sleep in the store room because all you are going to do is to study” and I remember crying, and it wasn’t that I was a dumbo, but he just wanted to make sure that I was on the right path, because don't forget we didn't start proper school until we were seven there, we didn’t start at five, but I was lucky because before I went to school I could read and write but a lot of children couldn't.

Hari Sonpal

So would you say you were at a bit more of an advantage?

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah I think that was because of my father, and my mother couldn't read or write when she came to Uganda, because she came to Uganda when she was about 20 and she couldn’t read or write but my father taught her to read and write, but she didn't write much but at least she could read, and so that was it in some ways. I could say a very idyllic childhood, we had friends, we didn’t have to worry about anything, although there wasn’t too much money, and once a year, as Dada said to you earlier, we would get new clothes, we didn't have too much but still we had each other, we had friends. I had friends from all backgrounds, Muslims, from other religions, but mostly Asians right because you didn’t mix with European because they segregated themselves and also you didn’t mix with the Africans. We lived in Old Kampala and just before I did my A-levels we moved to a different area and by that time I was in secondary school. I did my A-levels in my school and then I was planning, I wanted to come to England to do further studies, but my father already had three children here and he couldn’t afford to send me so then I applied to the Makerere University and did my degree there in English and Economics. Afterwards, once I graduated, the thing was there was only two avenues open, either teaching or working in the civil service. Now to get into civil service there you need contacts and sometimes to get contacts you had to either bribe somebody or sometimes if you were a woman then they wanted, sometimes to give you the job, they just wanted to sleep with you. So for Asian girl it was a no no no. So I went into teaching and we didn't have training or anything like that, and I taught in a secondary school until I left Uganda. I used to teach English, I think it would be Year 7 and 8 here, so that's what I did, and I got married in 1969. I started going out with my husband just a year before, I think we went out together for about eight/nine months, but it was unheard because you do not date. Marriages were arranged you meet your future husband or wife a couple of times and then you make up your mind, but because we didn't do that we totally didn't follow the tradition.

Hari Sonpal

Were your parents not like that [into following tradition]?

Shobhana Sonpal

Initially my father said “Okay fine”, my mother was a very easy going woman, but I think it was more my father-in-law who was unhappy. Anyway then I think in 1969 we got engaged in October, and November we got married, so it wasn't a very long engagement, and then I think after that we were planning that eventually Chandra wanted to come back to England to live. But we had a lovely life, okay we lived in a joint family, but still every Friday we would go to cinema, Saturday we would go out with friends, we would go out for dinner and also we would go on holidays, short holidays just driving go to safari park, but I think at that time, initially in our minds we never thought that we would be kicked out of Uganda.

Hari Sonpal

Because at that time…

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah it was fine and then I think beginning of 1972 Dada wanted to give up his job and he wanted to come to England, so he thought he’ll come and buy a house here. So he came to buy [a] house and whilst he was here, and plus he had a conference in Sweden, Amin announced [that the Asians had to leave] and there were rumblings ,you know Obote had been thrown out, there were rumblings saying “Something is going to happen” and that time I think it was quite a traumatic time because we were living in a big family, very uncertain times, very insecure times, Dada not being there and I was the only one [who] was [a] Uganda citizen, the rest they were all British passport holders. So Dada phoned me and said “Just try and make sure that you keep your Uganda citizenship”. Now Amin had decreed that [a] lot of Asians had got their Ugandan citizenship by crooked means so he wanted all Ugandan citizens to verify. So we had to stand in a long queue to get it verified and it was very dangerous times. So I had to get up at 4:00 AM go and stand in the queue, [the] first day we went our turn didn’t come, luckily second day I got my turn and my citizenship was confirmed, so we could transfer certain assets on my name, and we could keep them. But anyway then Dada came back and we sort of spent time trying to get all the paperwork done for all the different members of the family. We had to send all of them to get tickets for them sending out, plus Dada’s sister from Kenya was there with her two children, so she had to be sent here, and leaving the country wasn't safe. When you drove to the airport, which is about 21 miles away, it was very unsafe and I can't remember, I think I came a month before Dada came, so it must be if he announced it in August 1972, so I think I came here in October, and by that time we did have the house but because we were expecting to bring the money with us, our money from Uganda, we thought we were okay but when we came we had no money, £50 each that’s it.

Hari Sonpal

That must have been really scary for you.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah and on top of that because I was a Ugandan citizen I left saying to the immigration there that “I was going for a wedding to the UK”. I think I came a month before and as I said we had the house but really nothing else. My friends were already here and then my brothers were also here so I stayed a few days with them, and then I came to this house.

Hari Sonpal

How were you treated when you arrived in the UK?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well frankly I consider myself lucky. I didn't have to go to a refugee camp, I had a house I could speak the language, I had the education. So I didn't have to worry about certain things, but you still feel unsettled don't you?  Although, because in our case we were going to come anyway, I think I was a little prepared but it was totally different. Over there you had help in the house everything, so so easy, you could just go and get things, you just drive everywhere. Here I didn't have a car, we couldn’t drive anywhere, as I said it was very difficult to settle initially, and then frankly, because we weren’t in a camp, there was absolutely no help.

Hari Sonpal

So you were offered no support by anyone?

Shobhana Sonpal

No support whatsoever I didn’t have any support.

Hari Sonpal

Obviously there would have been a difference in culture did it effect you?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well yes and no. I think it did effect [me], certain things. I remember going to the shop and looking for things like Indian vegetables or even garlic, that wasn’t mainstream then, you couldn’t go to a greengrocer and pick up garlic.

Hari Sonpal

And that would have been something you did every day.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah now you see garlic in every little supermarket and things like Indian spices. But I think culturally, I agree it was very different, you know certain things you did. So even your food, it’s the way you live, okay I was okay I dressed in western clothes so I was okay. But then there were some people who didn’t even dress [in western clothes], they wore saris, so for them it was way [more] difficult.

Hari Sonpal

You didn't get a job straight away?

Shobhana Sonpal

No I didn't get a job because I came here first. Then Dada’s brother and his wife came, and then Dada came last, and we all lived in this house together.

Hari Sonpal

How many of you were in the house?

Shobhana Sonpal

Dada’s brother, his two children, his wife, Dada and I initially. And that's when certain things started happening because it started affecting the family dynamics, because Dada’s brother had never been here and he found it very difficult to sort of like settle, and his wife started misbehaving as well. It was like, you know she got [a] little work by just sewing things, because she could sew, so she thought she was supporting all of us, which wasn't true, but she thought she was. So there a was lots of arguments in the family.

Hari Sonpal

So it was quite difficult a time.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah difficult time and I think we were all under stress and living in a very small house in a very new environment, all of you together, and people are not used to doing all this shopping, and cleaning, and cooking, and everything yourself.

Hari Sonpal

Someone else would have been happy to do that for you in Uganda.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah and we lived in a big house. And then they moved to Birmingham, Dada made sure that he had a business, because his brother didn't know anything else, so he had a business. Dada and I got our jobs and my first salary was about £90 a month.

Hari Sonpal

Wow what were you doing?

Shobhana Sonpal

I was working for a medical research council in the admin department and Dada’s [salary] was, I think about £150, and the whole of Dada’s salary went into mortgage. We lived on my salary because we were hoping that we would bring the money from Uganda to pay for the house, and obviously that didn’t happen, so we couldn’t buy the house outright, and then we had to support the other members of the family. So that was quite difficult and also you come here after such a trauma, I think that last month in Uganda for me was quite traumatic because I was trying to accept that the whole circumstances had changed. Initially Dada and I were supposed to come and live on our own here, instead we were going to come and live with the family again, which probably deep down I didn't want to. Secondly during the day I was running around, because I was only one who was driving the car there, so I was running around trying to sort everybody out and in the evening I would be sitting there trying to do all the admin work, all the paperwork, everybody’s paperwork, and because we didn't have a photocopier I was copying certain documents by hand, and on top of that, because my parents were already here [in the UK] their house was still there, their things were still there, so I was trying to sort their house out! So it was an extremely difficult time, and plus you had to make sure, there was curfew at seven in the evening, so you had to be inside your house by seven. Plus it was not secure because you never know when the army would come, so you had to be very careful. Luckily none of us were attacked, nothing happened to us, only once when we went to the post office a gun was pointed at us saying “What are you doing?” we said “We’re just coming to check our post” then all he said was “Okay then go home”, so nothing else happened. And also there was a shortage of things like milk because the milkman wouldn’t come. So sometimes Dada and I would drive around several shops trying to find two pints of milk because we had a big family, you needed things like milk and essentials, but as I said that was a very very traumatic time. I tried to try to get, my mother had left her jewellery in her house, so I tried to get some of it out and I did manage but I don't know what else I left there, you know because as I said I didn't have a lot of time, I didn't have any help either, I was completely on my own, and until Dada came I was completely on my own.

Hari Sonpal

How did your everyday life change?

Shobhana Sonpal

From there to here?

Hari Sonpal

Yeah.

Shobhana Sonpal

Well I didn’t work there [in Uganda] but going to work was not too difficult, but I didn’t have to clean the house [in Uganda]. I used to do the cooking and I used to do shopping and such, but here it was quite difficult because you had to do all the cleaning, all the cooking, all the shopping, so in that way it changed. Plus the social aspect of it changed, that over there I was so used to going out and seeing friends you could be out because the weather was fantastic so you would be out and about, and here I didn't go out, didn’t see friends for weeks or months, because basically it was very difficult. Here once you came, people they were all scattered, like families, when I my sister was here but she lived in Harrow, my parents lived in East London, my brother. So it was very difficult to see [people] and I had a childhood friend, my university friends, they were all scattered, everybody went to different places. So you were isolated slightly and then also by that time, I think I was 25 when I came, no I got married at 24 so I was 27/28 when we came here, and it is always slightly more difficult to start making friends at that age especially when you are so down with working and looking after the house and family and this and that. So it definitely changed that you don't go out, and also another thing we didn't have money to go to the cinema regularly or things like that.  I remember Dada saying to me “You better buy a winter coat” so he said he gave me £20 initially so I went and got a winter coat for £10 and saved the [other] £10 to spend on something else. Obviously over there in Uganda you didn’t need winter clothes. Another experience was, soon after Dada came here, I was waiting one day, it was raining, so Dada said “I thought you were going out? I said “No, I’ll wait till the rain stops” and he said “Well you’ll wait for days because it doesn’t stop” he said “Just get a jacket and an umbrella and just go”.

Hari Sonpal

Obviously in Uganda you never had that problem.

Shobhana Sonpal

No in Uganda it was tropical so it would rain and then [the] sun would be shining and you’d be okay.

Hari Sonpal

I think people don't realise how much everyday [life] changed, your activities, it’s like a massive change.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah in some ways it was massive change but as I said at least I could speak English so I could apply for job and initially Dada had some savings here so we were okay, we didn’t have to go on Social Security, we didn’t go onto Social Security at all.

Hari Sonpal

But I guess some people needed to, did they have to?

Shobhana Sonpal

Oh yes some people they had to get money from the government. We didn’t have to do that, I got the job within three months. I think Dada got [a] job from April 1973, mine was from January 1973, but I think one thing I remember, when I went for my interview with the civil service, and this question now nobody would ever ask questions like that, he said to me “Are you planning to have any children?”. So I said “No not at the moment” but the thing is it would be considered extremely inappropriate now but at that time people asked questions like that, like even when I think I went for the civil service interview, there were three members in the panel, this [woman] said to me afterwards “Oh one question I was going to ask you, how is your English?” but she said “I see you speak well”. But the thing is you wouldn’t ask a white person that question. but at that time you wouldn’t think twice about it. Politically it was incorrect but you didn’t even think about it, there is a slight sort of hint of racism in it, just because I was a brown person she thought that she was going to ask that [question], but you know at least give her credit the way she said “I was going to ask you that but I don't need to because you do speak well”.

Hari Sonpal

But yeah someone else I guess would have been asked that question just because they weren’t [white]. I guess you wouldn’t [have been] treated the same in England as you were in Uganda?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well I would say that you know, to be very frank, I think at that time maybe there were incidents. The one incident I do remember is when I started working in the civil service and I was working in Highbury & Islington and then one day I went into a café, and I was waiting for the service and she won't come and serve me. There were people who came after me she served them, and I walked out but I didn’t have the confidence to say anything. I didn't say anything, but I think that was because I was a brown person, so again now I think I would take exception to that but at that time I didn’t have the confidence or even any knowledge about it.

Hari Sonpal

Did things change quickly for you after that you came to England did things get better quickly or?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well we had work but then also after coming here we had to settle various members of the family, like once his brother and his wife moved to Birmingham, then we had Dada’s nephew with us, and then while he was still with us my in-laws came back from India, then they were with us, then Dada's elder sister and husband came here, they were with us for three months then they moved to their house, and then Dada’s other sister came and we supported her for two years. And we didn't take a penny from any of them, we supported them financially, they lived here free of charge, food, everything provided and until they all moved out, and during that time I also had Neeraj, my first child, and then four years later I had Anuskha. And with Neeraj financially we were so tight that I had to go back to work, virtually leaving [him] with a childminder when he was only two months old ,which if you think of it, it does break your heart that you leave your first child but then I had to do it because we can't afford to otherwise, but whereas with Anushka I was lucky that I didn't go back to work until she was 8-9 months old.

Hari Sonpal

Obviously being back to Uganda how has it changed?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well I’ve been back twice, first time I went was in 1994, when we two had been married 25 years, and you know it was very strange because we stayed in a hotel, and you go back home how can you stay in a hotel? That was [the] thing in my mind, that I've come home and I’m staying in [a] hotel.

Hari Sonpal

Like a tourist.

Shobhana Sonpal

Well exactly but I’m not a tourist am I? It’s my home and obviously I was born brought up there, I’ve got sort of some sort of emotional tie there, but it was very strange. And I remember the first day we arrived in the afternoon, we just put our belongings in the hotel, and then we walked the whole of the Main Street and we could remember all the little places “This is where we used to have coffee, this is where we used to eat, there was this tree here” and then I went back in 2012 or 2013, I can’t remember now, and Kampala has changed completely, it’s unrecognisable. But what I do say is that the young population they are very very lovely and I went back to Kololo school, where I used to teach, and they all said “Why don't you come back?” and I said “No” I said “I’m too old now to come back” but even when we went to into town and we spoke to a couple people and we said “We used to live here” they said “Oh why don't you come back it’s good now” and all the youngsters, young Ugandans, because Kampala is full of very young Ugandans and they don't know any different, so they want prosperity and all that. So again I felt quite safe, to be very frank, I felt very safe walking around. During Amin’s time it was a bit unsafe but again because I used to teach in a school a couple of times I was took by the army and if you say you are a teacher they respect you they say “Go”. Certain professions they just sort of [let you go].

Hari Sonpal

So in a way you were quite fortunate that you had that job.

Shobhana Sonpal

Exactly so as I said I felt very safe and we walked so many places when we went. We just walked around and everybody was amazed because in Kampala nobody, especially the rich Asians, nobody walks. But now I think if I had to go back and live there I couldn’t, because I don't like the social structure there now, the people that are left there, especially the Asians, they're all into money and all that. Before there was this diversity a real connection with people which isn't there anymore.

Hari Sonpal

You said before when you were younger you know people around the streets and you would just be able to talk to anyone, but now you wouldn’t feel that connection there?

Shobhana Sonpal

No and I remember my father had an Arab friend and we would go to his house and they would come to our house and when they invited us to their house they would respect that we were all vegetarians so they would not cook meat on that day and then she’d make sure that all the utensils were separate. My mother wasn't so strict about it but none of us ate meat, we were brought up vegetarian so those sort of things. But now I think I would think twice about going and talking to people and I found it, especially when I went back the second [time], I found nothing in common with the people who are left there. I suppose I’ve lived here longer now.

Hari Sonpal

So you would you consider the UK to be your home now or?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well yeah I do now, I don't think of Uganda back home. But as I said first time when I went I sort of said “I’ve come home and I'm staying in hotel” that was the feeling. Whereas with India, although I'm very comfortable in India, but I've never felt, I’ve never thought of India as my home, so I think it must be because I was born there [Uganda] and brought up, my childhood there, my adulthood there, virtually a quarter of my life basically.

Hari Sonpal

And so you consider the UK your home now. I know we’re going back here a bit, but you found it really hard leaving Uganda, did it take you a long time to adjust to that emotionally?

Shobhana Sonpal

Yes as I said it was so many different things. You know first of all it is the distance, like in Uganda, in Kampala, you just get into your car and you’re [somewhere] in five/ten minutes but here everything took so much longer, we didn’t have a car for about two years but even then with public transport you know it took ages. I think the weather, as I said before, because you just had to get adjusted to the weather.

Hari Sonpal

It's the little things like that that people don’t realise.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah people don’t realise that and that you had to do everything yourself, like say something heavy needed to be brought in or something, you had to bring it yourself because there's nobody to do it for you.

Hari Sonpal

But back in Uganda you had someone to do it for you.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah most people had houseboys.

Hari Sonpal

With Asians households was that quite common to have?

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah and some people treated there servants quite badly, so I think that even then I thought it was unfair. The more and more I’ve learnt, I think we talk about racism but I think Asians, there was racism there coming down from Europeans were racist towards Asians and Africans, Asians were racist towards Africans. I think that was really bad and as I said I didn’t realise it then and I had African friends only when I went to university, until then I didn't have any African friends.

Hari Sonpal

So you didn’t really mix with African community as much?

Shobhana Sonpal

No nobody did, but as I said it was only when I went to university, that's why I always said university opens up [people].

Hari Sonpal

Yeah it’s good because you meet lots of new people and I guess it kind of broke down the social structure a bit because you were able to mix with people you wouldn’t usually mix with.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah because although different Asian communities mixed with each other there were still people [who] more or less stayed within their cast as well, even amongst Hindus you know, we were Lohanas, then Patels, so everybody stayed within their caste.

Hari Sonpal

I guess it wouldn’t be frowned upon, but would it have been unusual to mix with other Hindus?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well in Uganda we had good relations with everybody, but there were very few inter-caste marriages it was exactly like people had come from India, but they still kept to their own castle people kept within their community and caste.

Hari Sonpal

I guess that's another thing when you came to the UK, you wouldn't necessarily stay in your community you’d try…?

Shobhana Sonpal

Well to be very frank initially I just didn’t have the time to keep up with the community and all that because, first of all I was working, I had young children, I had family, all this extended family to look after and all that, and then for a long time I had my mother-in-law to look after. So I didn't have the time and then I think also partly, we live in an area where there were not many Asians, I think I just drifted away and then I started mixing with whoever you know. So I'm not part of Lohana community or any particular [community] now, maybe if I lived in that sort of area and then got involved yes, and I think I'm not religious so I'm not one who goes to the temple regularly.

Hari Sonpal

You said earlier when you moved your family you weren’t as a family some of you were in East London some of you in North London so it must have been quite hard to adjust to not seeing your family all the time.

Shobhana Sonpal

Oh yes definitely and another thing you could talk to your family on the phone, but the telephones were so expensive, I think my telephone bill here used to be quite high because you know sometimes you don't realise you talk to people for a long time and [the] telephone bill was quite high. In Uganda you didn’t need to talk to people on the telephone because you went and saw them.

Hari Sonpal

That’s something that I don’t really realise that.

Shobhana Sonpal

Yeah you don’t realise it’s little things like that like how easy it was.