Max Russel

So Akbar thank you so much for speaking to me today. Obviously you’ve been involved in the BUA50 project and have spoken times before about your experience of Uganda and resettlement, and Stradishall camp as well, but I was wondering if you could start by telling me what you remember about growing up in Uganda, life there?

Akbar Vohra

So I was born in Uganda in 1960 and obviously [I was] 12 when we were expelled from Uganda. Happy memories, we lived in [an] apartment block where we had 12 different families in each apartment block. Predominantly we lived there although we did move now and again to other areas for short periods, I think mainly because my Grandfather came or my uncle came and just to accommodate them we moved out for a while and then came back again, so many different aspects I could talk about, if I firstly focus on schooling perhaps. There was a small infants school within 5 minutes walking distance from where we lived that I went to for the first three years, so from probably about three to six I went there, memories of that were just having good fun. There was a sandpit there and I can remember we found baby frogs near the little stream and trying to make a little house for them and hoping they were still there when we got back, obviously they weren't. So learnt a bit of interaction, language skills, whatever, then I went to the primary school which was essentially where I was until we left. Primary school was obviously Ugandan schooling, you paid for, and essentially you progressed to the next school year if you passed your exams, if you didn't you were stuck in the same year and so in my final year for example three brothers of different ages in that same class, mix of males/females, there were no Europeans there but there were many Africans as well as Asians there. A lot of them fairly well off, a number of the African kids were sons of ministers or members of parliament. [The] girl that next sat next to me was one of such. And my brother and sisters went to the school next door which was bigger, so my dad worked fairly close by to where we had the school so he used to give everyone a lift. What was a pain was that the other kids got into the car as well, so it was always really crowded. So after about maybe a year I started walking to school because I hated being cramped with all these other kids in the car. So I'd leave 10 minutes early to go to school which was a couple of miles away, it wasn't too far, which therefore also meant that I walked past the houses of parliament and I remember seeing Obote on one or two occasions and also Idi Amin on an occasion there, and on the day of the coup I was actually going to the school, my usual route, and then got accosted by a soldier with a rifle who shouted something at me. Asked me a few questions and shouted at me I think essentially “Where are you going?” and [I] told him “I'm going to school” and he just told me to “Clear off and go back”. So I tried a different route to get to school, failed because well someone opened a window from the first floor apartment block and said “Go home it's dangerous”. So I went and then my mum tells me they were really pleased, because I'd left 10/15 minutes earlier, that I was back home, safely back home. None of them had left the house, they were obviously aware of things whereas I'd already gone. So that was an interesting memory in terms of school. And school was great I think it formed some of my attitudes. I can remember getting one of my school reports, I got 93%, and it said “Vohra needs to try harder” but it was enjoyable. It was based on the Cambridge curriculum the headmaster was an alumnus of Cambridge as well. In terms of interactions with people you know. How did we get on with Africans and Asians and things. I had friends that were African and Asian at school, in fact there were three of us, so there was William Achaye who was African, Mukesh who was obviously Asian, and me, and we used to hang around together a lot but we never really met outside of school just because [we] lived in different areas. So all my social side and interactions were with people who lived where we did. We lived on a slope, so the top two blocks - ours was technically a ground floor, but there was another set of apartments below us that were also ground floors. Just the way it was built on the side of a hill, and if you went further down below, the Aga Khan university or school was there. There was a massive big free open space where we used to play cricket but if anyone did have any segregation it was more the Ithna Asheri Asians who stayed as a separate community to us. But we did play each other, and you know they would put a team up to play cricket against our lot at the top and some of them I know are here now in Peterborough for example, so we interacted with them. Didn't really have any [black] Ugandan friends, obviously did interact with people of Ugandan origins because we had some servants. We used to get farmers coming to bring their goods to the house, so I can remember my mum testing the eggs, by dipping them in a pot of water and rejecting the ones that floated because clearly they had, hydrogen sulphide I presume inside them. So in that way we did, and it was notable that they were very much protective towards the people that they worked with. So I can recall people being killed. I can remember one chap was chased down towards the fields where we played cricket because he tried to steal a car. A lot of the Africans went after him and they got big rocks, bigger than his face, and smashed his face in trying to kill him, completely distorted. I can remember watching it all and wondering if he was still alive and did go the next day to see if he was still there. Obviously no one was there. [And] then another time someone jumping from one balcony to another to escape the hoard coming after him and he missed and a few floors down you could see [a] blood spattered body. [And] a policeman standing over someone he’d shot. Again all these blood spots around him. He was standing on him as if he had just a trophy with his gun showing, and he was very pleased that people could see him, see what he done. And another person being hacked to death as well. So I saw it, didn't really think much about that but never felt in danger myself although for a while, towards the end of us living there, as an apartment block, we paid for a security guard to walk round the apartment at night time to just make sure that things were safe. And on our block you could go up onto an open space where you could look around everywhere and towards the end I can remember this very high pitched buzzing sound going past my ear, didn't see the fly or whatever it was. And it was only recently a colleague, who’s an Air Force Wing Commander, saying actually “That's a high velocity rifle shot that probably just missed you because that's what we hear”. So almost shot once unknowingly, but we were fine.

And other things you know entertainment, my lasting memory. Round the corner was a bar where they continuously played My Boy Lollipop so that's the one song I would actually relate to so much that was always blaring through the jukebox. There was a sweet shop next door so we used to go there and if there was a building site you’d try and find bits of copper wire and things because if you could give it to the guy who's buying it up, then you'd get a few shillings. So you could buy some sweets, not that my parents didn't give me money, but this was your own money that you found. So sometimes did that. Most of the time it was playing cricket or just seeing friends. We were one of the first to have a TV, so again our house used to get full of people coming in to watch TV or the neighbours, which was frustrating for me because we had to fight for a chair to sit on. And I can remember watching the Apollo landing and things like that. And I've got memories of Pope Paul coming, but I presume that's probably more TV because I don't think my parents would have let me go to watch him, but it was a massive rally to see Pope Paul. We went to rallies.

Interestingly when someone took over there was the day where everything was quiet and people were frightened, worried about what would happen, and then the next day the whole town centre had people running around screaming, shouting, celebrating that a new regime had taken over. So it happened with Obote taking over and then with Idi Amin taking over. And one day it's all quiet and difficult, and the next day it’s all celebratory.

In terms of social things we had a cinema there. I can remember trying to get into a spaghetti western and obviously was too small and got kicked out. I think my brother went, I used to follow my brother who is three years older, everywhere and he always made sure I couldn’t. But I had other friends. So cinema, weddings, fairs, again there was always a fair down at the bottom and the circus and things. So a lot of the entertainment was no different to as far as I'm concerned, to what you had in the UK really. Even the drive-in cinema was a great place to go whenever interesting films were on and going with your parents.

And you know, our apartment was a couple bedrooms, a lounge, and another dining area, kitchen, all the rest of it. Interestingly, that when I came here the most shocking thing for me was having to wash in the same room as there was a toilet, because we had separate toilets. Also thinking why would you have only have a bath and still have dirty water all over you. Because we had what was really a wet room. You know there is a big deal now, but at the time it was a wet room where there was a little tub where you could bathe, but also a shower hose where you could shower yourself down, and the washing got done in there as well. So 50 years ago we had wet rooms, which is supposedly a big deal here now. so things go around in circles don't they.

I'm not sure what else I can tell you about. That was the main memories I have of that social, education, and living.

Max Russel

So speaking of education, you said it was based on the Cambridge system, so were your teachers mainly European, British, or was it a mix?

Akbar Vohra

They were African or Asian. The standard language was English and you didn't speak anything else [in school]. Interestingly if you fell out with someone at home you wouldn't speak Gujarati or Hindi to them, you would speak to them in English. That indicated that you were not speaking to them. So English became the language of diplomacy, even as kids when we fell out with someone because they upset you. So they were all, I can’t ever recall any English/European teachers. My school was Demonstration Primary School, which had attached to it, a teacher training college. So we had the standard teachers as well as trainee teachers coming in, who were then obviously appraised and monitored on how they taught things. And the only time that we had any Europeans coming to school was when the missionary nuns came by with their book stall, and they would be selling books. And I can’t find it, but I’m sure I brought it back with me, I bought Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar when I was a kid. Way beyond my educational competences in English really. But anyway I bought that. So you could buy that. And we didn't really have any other interaction with any European people. There was a golf course just down the road from the school. Obviously they had lots of members who were European as well as African and Asian. And the only time I interacted with them, there was a stream there and again you’d go and pick frogs or some tadpoles whatever. And I can remember getting accused by someone of trying to steal his golf ball and you think, “What would I do with your golf ball? I’m more interested in these tiny colourful frogs that are here”. So there was minimal interaction with European people at that time. The level of education I know was higher than when I arrived here, comprehensive school. I’m not sure what it was like in the grammar schools. I just missed the 11+ exams, well not just, by a year I missed the 11+ exams, and so I was put into a comprehensive school. Eastholm in Peterborough, and that school had 8 streams in each year according to ability, all with about 25 to 30 kids in them. And the bottom one was full of I think maybe Pakistani Asians who couldn't speak English. So they expected me to be [in there]. We got tested, Mark was another kid who joined at the same time as I did, and we sat and had a written test on English and Maths, and we were both in the top stream. So we joined that. So I was an oddity really to be a brown face in a top class, and I can remember when the girls joined up to the boys school, originally it was a separate boys and girls school, one of the girls saying “What’s he doing here?”. And one of the other boys saying “Well he's one of our best kids that's why he’s here, he probably knows more than you do”. But I was virtually top of English, way ahead in Maths at least two years, and my science. My history was appalling because our history was more about, Speke and Stanley, and Mesopotamia rather than Kings and Queens of England and Wales and wherever.

Max Russel

Going off that, the education system in Uganda you mentioned there the focus of history. What about geography or other things, or even English language, was it very British centred or was there sort of a regional variety to it, that you learnt about Uganda and the surrounding countries?

Akbar Vohra

So geography was world geography. So I can remember kids laughing at me when people said “What part of the region is Europe?” and I said “It’s the tundra region”, and it was obviously completely wrong, and they were all laughing and I was thinking “Well I don’t know”. But anyway we learned about the whole world really in terms of geography, rivers and the usual stuff. I was interested about dinosaurs, but I don’t think I picked that up from there. But geography, fair bit of African geography, countries and things, but also worldwide in terms of history. Mesopotamia was seen as the main origin of civilization really so there was focus on that sort of history, history of Speke and Stanley, and how the explorers came to East Africa and Africa in general, main focus on East Africa and some elsewhere. We didn’t really talk much about South Africa. Terrains, all the rest of it, so it was really this history of civilization. Science, standard science, chemistry etc. I can remember one of the teachers asking you know “If I put this stone in this beaker of water what will happen?” and you know I was about 8/9 and I said “Obviously it will rise by that amount”, Archimedes and stuff, didn’t seem like a big deal but actually I picked it up. We had weird questions, I can remember once one of the MCQ questions, it was all MCQs, and the teacher cut holes in where the correct answers were so he could rapidly see how many marks you got. One of them I scored badly and I was hauled up in front of the class because I was expected to be the top in the class normally, and I only got about 50% or something and he picked a question and said “You answered this. How can Entebbe be only 2 miles away from here you know it's about 20” and I said “I’m sure I put that down” and then he [had] put all the wrong holes in, so I was vindicated. But one of the weirdest questions was “does the earth get heavier or not as time goes on”? And I’m still not sure, I couldn’t know how to answer that, because you get meteorites coming in and you get loss of gases from the atmosphere and we weren’t sending satellites out, but obviously the space age was around then which is probably why the question came up. So I still don't know the answer to whether the earth’s mass is getting bigger or smaller, so that was the kind of science things that we talked about and that was even at 8/9/10 years old really, so that was good. English I was not that good, my grammar was always poor. I can remember my dad sent me for extra lessons on a Saturday morning one of the summers when we were off, trying to help improve it. I was still better than the others and I was still good when I got here, but it didn't feel right. So English was of a decent standard, Maths as I said was about 2/3 years ahead of the UK when I came here.

Max Russel

So you mentioned those memories of violence happening. Was any of that or those tensions where you wear of that before Idi Amin came to power, towards the end of Obote’s regime, or was it really a sudden shock, this sort of change in atmosphere after the coup?

Akbar Vohra

No so it wasn’t necessarily related to the coup, this was a way of living. So some of the stories I’ve told predated Idi Amin coming into power. So it just happened really, you noticed it, you saw it. The needing of the guards I think was post-Idi Amin [coup]. So some changes were happening but the people you knew were still fine and they were kind of protective towards you because you loosely were part of a big family really. Technically the ghetto wasn't that far away from where we lived, I didn’t go there. I didn't really know anyone who lived there, but life carried on. The time that it got particularly bad is obviously when we were asked to leave and my father must have had connections.

So my grandad came in the 1950s and he used to come and go from India, had a business, they had a motor parts shop. He did other things as well. He used to get bored I think after a few months and then he’d go back. He encouraged my dad to come and my uncle to come and they set up a business. Initially my dad was working in the government offices, my mum tells me that he actually printed my birth certificate and that of my brothers and sisters as well. So he had some connections within the government and then he was manager of Michelin Tyres when we were due to leave. So at that time we were aware that certainly the trip from Kampala to Entebbe was getting more difficult, lots of army blockades and checkpoints. My dad paid for us to have seats on the coach which had [a] police escort and we were escorted to Entebbe and therefore didn't have to go through the checkpoints. Not sure how much he paid, and I don't even know where he left his car and things. We must have driven there [to the Coach]. So that was that one time where it was bad and then I was strip searched in the airport, looking for anything I might have been secreting on myself to take away, but even up to the end it didn't feel that I was in danger, apart from that journey with my parents. There were food shortages, so I can remember having to go to about half a dozen shops to find a pint of milk or something, but my mum would just say “Right go and find some milk” and for whatever reason I used to like just doing that sort of thing, and they didn’t feel that I was in danger, so I’d just walk around.

Max Russel

So in the build up to leaving, how long was that after the expulsion decree? How long was that process, and the day you left, was there a reason why it was then? Or do you know what spurred your parents?

Akbar Vohra

In terms of fixing the date I suppose, firstly my parents already had [British] citizenship. I think he must have been thinking about moving to the UK anyway because, and it's a shame I've never asked him, he's passed away, I don't think he had difficulty in getting all the paperwork sorted out and because he knew people within the offices he probably got it processed quickly and I think they were fairly pragmatic you know. “If you have to leave just go now why waste time” and so basically it was, get the paperwork sorted, up sticks, and clear off, and that's what they did and picked up the earliest flight they could. So 27^th of September when was when we left and that was probably about 10/14 days from the start of the date of us needing to leave so as far as he was concerned “If you're going to do something, do it now”.

Max Russel

And were your parents able to sell property or assets? Did your dad’s connections help with any of that? Because famously you weren't allowed to take a lot with you so how did they go about that, if you remember it?

Akbar Vohra

So I’ve looked at some paperwork. Firstly in terms of property, house, furniture, car, bank account, goods, it was pointless trying to sell it because you could only take limited amount money out with you, £50 equivalent. You couldn't transfer it anywhere unless you could convert it to gold or jewellery in which case you’d try and hide it or something, which he didn't do. I'm sure they tried, because they knew some addresses in London, to post some things. So parcel up packages and post them and I think a lot of people did that because I have images of a lot of boxes sat in Entebbe airport getting soaking wet as we were waiting to be transported out of Uganda, and I'm sure that army would have realised and would have probably stopped it and looted it for what they wanted anyway. So I think they made an attempt and they may have been successful, I'm not sure. There were certainly some big items that my mum had which she says were from Uganda and the only way she could have got them was if they made their way to England via the Postal Service. Bank account frozen so you couldn't take that. I've seen letters from him to [a] couple of pensions companies that he had pensions with trying to see if he could have the pension assets transferred to the UK. I don’t think he got anything across, but he had a few thousand [pounds] in the pension pots, he had a couple of pension pots that he tried to move across but as far as I know I don't think it managed it. So essentially it was pointless selling anything. My mum says they were told “Leave your door open so we don't have to break it down” so someone could come in and take whatever they want to from your house, and that's what they did.

Max Russel

And after the announcement do you remember your parents feelings and emotions changing? Did they think that they were leaving permanently? You were also at the age of 12, were you aware, do you remember being told “We have to leave our country”?

Akbar Vohra

I think yes and it was again a matter of fact way of talking they didn't pull any punches it was simply “We have to leave, we're going to be leaving, and we won't be coming back”. There was really no discussion further than that, it was just “We’ll be leaving sometime soon as [soon as] we get all our paperwork sorted” and that was it. They had no expectations of coming back. I'm not even sure that they really had any expectations of getting any of the goods out.

Max Russel

When did you stop going to school was it right till the end or?

Akbar Vohra

So school years started from January to December so it wasn't as it is here where it's September onwards. So as far as I can remember we went to school as per normal, I can't remember not going to school in September, but I can't say I do. I do know that schools must have been open because some of the paperwork and my reports are stamped as the 16^th of September, my copies of my school reports that my dad wanted so that he could bring them up to here and show them to the schools here as necessary. So they were open then and it carried on, it's very sketchy in my memory that month September, what I would say is I can’t remember not going to school.

Max Russel

And you said it's sketchy but you said you had African classmates, so after the announcement was that something that got discussed in school? Did their attitude change or it wasn’t really even a topic of discussion?

Akbar Vohra

I can’t remember talking to the other kids about it at all. It was nothing, you went to school for schooling and that was it. I can't remember talking about it with the kids in the garden, outside the house.

Max Russel

As your family was getting ready to leave were they coordinating with other families nearby? Or was it really just your family set their own date and trip for example?

Akbar Vohra

I think each to their own. I can't remember anyone else from our block coming, they may have but I can't remember them, because I also can't remember them being at Stradishall. My uncle came, my aunt and two cousins had already left for India and didn't come back. So my uncle came with us and he didn't go to the camp, he had an acquaintance in London, so he came on the flight with us which I actually didn't realise until my mum told me, and he went straight to some friends in London. Eventually he got my aunt and cousins to come from India, once he’d settled down, so no it was each to their own really. Find your flight because you couldn't really, soon as you had the paperwork you might as well clear off, didn't see any advantage in staying and I know of people who lived in Jinja, which had a lot of violence, and they worked for Madhvani, which was sugar cane very big factory, very well-known, and they were aware of issues a bit earlier in terms of violence and some of them left before the deadline and I think those who left before the deadline were able to take more monies out then than others, so it wasn't ever going to be easier to stay.

Max Russel

And then you arrived at Entebbe airport. Do you remember the flight, you mentioned the airport with the wet boxes and you had the police escort coach so the actual journey, even though you said you didn't have any roadblocks, what was the atmosphere like at Entebbe when you arrived?

Akbar Vohra

Tense. So there was a meeting place where the coaches, there [was] more than one coach there, that we went to and then got all the cases on. People were still apprehensive on the coach expecting that the police would protect them but obviously until you've been through the journey you don't know. Not sure if sombre is the right word people were just probably, apprehensive is the right word for how they felt, wanted to essentially just get out of there. You're at the last part of your journey to escape. And when you are aware as a child that you've gone through this, escort equals potential violence really. So whilst I wasn't scared I don't think I was particularly smiley or happy as if you were going on holiday. And so you just went through the process the guards were not as brusque as [they] might [normally] be. As I said I was told to take all my clothes off, I think I still had my pants on probably, and they looked everywhere to make sure I wasn't hiding anything. Asked me specifically “Have you got any treasures on you?” the blue marble that I had was the only bit of treasure that I’d put in my pocket and a magnet. So that was all and then they just let us go and I think there was a hurrah when the plane took off and that was the first time people felt that they actually got away to somewhere safe and the rest of the journey. The flight I can't remember anything. I’m sure we left in the afternoon but I can't remember, probably fell asleep, and that was it till we landed at Stansted. 27^th of September. I know the flight number was BA1046 because I've got a receipt for 10 shillings that was given to my dad for 10 shillings that he had in his pocket, as if he was ever going to come back and claim it. So that’s an interesting memory because I couldn't remember anything more about the flight. Obviously when we left Entebbe it was decent temperatures, so shorts and a short sleeve shirt on and not used to the temperature [here]. I was freezing when I got off the plane, it was dark, and I got off with the family my knees were knocking, it was actually 10 degrees. It was technically one of the warmer autumns of the UK, so 10 degrees now is warm but at the time I was freezing cold and we were then taken to the camp in Stradishall where we stayed for a couple of weeks. There was a hall reception area where you kind of processed and then given an area in a hanger that was cordoned off with mattresses on the floor. There must have been some sort of a screening and maybe wardrobe things, but basically we stayed there and the next morning went to the reception area, or maybe it was the same night. But basically I found a really nice warm blue duffel coat that I could put on and wear and stay a bit warmer. Canteen style food, my main memories are really playing cricket with some of the chefs and their assistants after breakfast, and the big electric housing for meters was used as a stump, and we'd all be playing together. My mum hated it she basically told my dad to find anything anywhere and just get us out of there. My father had a letter of introduction from Michelin Tyres to work that he could have handed into the Massey Ferguson in Stoke so that was one potential plan, but whilst he was there there was a call out for people. People were chosen on the basis of their English, my dad had the equivalent of 8 O-Levels when he left Uganda, so he was well educated and he and someone else went for interviews at Perkins Engines in Peterborough. Got a job as a stocks clerk and with that we got a furnished house where we were paying off the rent, as well as the furnishings. So two weeks later, I think we were almost the first family in Peterborough, met by Margaret Lane who's the lady who [was] assisting the rehousing of all the Asians. She was given the task of finding 50 houses and sorting all the furnishings etc. She's on YouTube you can listen to the interview about [it]. I just remember her as a really nice lady who was proud of everything she'd set up for us, showing us the new wardrobes, and chest of drawers, and the bedding, and the beds, and the curtains etc. And we were there at Star Road initially and then moved just before my O-Levels to a different place because they’d built a roadway through where our house was in Peterborough, our first house in Peterborough.

Max Russel

So the camp, you were only there for two weeks. So it was quite a short stay but do you remember feeling that this is quite unusual being there, or was it more you were thinking “This is temporary”?

Akbar Vohra

Yes I think for us it was a stopover it was never a plan for us to stay longer, the families that stayed longer were accommodated in proper houses, we weren't. We spent the whole period in the hangers so you'd have about 8/12 families taking up short sections. So you had one family there and another family opposite you, and then it was sectioned according to size, so that's all we had. So it was it was not a house, and therefore not a home, and therefore had to be temporary.

Max Russel

And in terms the volunteer help there, was that something that you [had interaction] with during [your stay in] the camp? You said that you were given coats do you remember interacting a lot with volunteers, and you played with other kids or?

Akbar Vohra

Because it was only a couple of weeks I don't think we really came across any locals, I can't particularly remember talking to any English children. [I] very much remember that the people who worked there and who were playing cricket with us and how nice they were behind the counters and how nice they were. The ones helping, volunteers, helping with the clothes. But otherwise socially [nothing] and I suppose as a child if you're fed and watered and you're messing about you were alright probably, and I think it was an excellent thing keeping you active in sports was clearly well thought from the guys. I remember this [guy], he used to call me tiger, he couldn't get me out when I was batting but his nickname for me was tiger and he used, to he used to play in his white outfit, because he was a chef's assistant, so I remember him the best of all. Slightly long hair, don't think he had a moustache, and I wish I could have found him because it would have been nice to talk to him again. So he was probably in his 30s, if that, maybe he was even younger than that.

Max Russel

How did your parents find the two weeks, the arrival and then resettling in Peterborough, how did they find that?

Akbar Vohra

I think my parents are very much matter of fact and pragmatic about things. My mum basically, I think she said, “Ramadan is coming up soon I don't want to be here during Ramadan” and they were basically planning ahead and thinking of where next, and presumably keeping in touch. My mum would have let my dad do everything, she would have pushed him and prodded him to do it all but she would have sorted him. and I think they just kept their ears to the ground. Realised that there was an opportunity, a call for people to go to Peterborough. I know so many families saying that “It was going to be London, or else they were going to sit there”. So many families did not want to go anywhere but London, and it’s not unusual to see letters that said England, London as a reverse of London having the most important bit to it. So people wanted to [resettle] there, Forest Hill and Southall were areas with a lot of Asians already, that people were aware of, so many people wanted to go to that sort of area. I don't think my mum wanted to be living the way we were for any longer than necessary, so she pushed for us to move.

Max Russel

And then you arrived in Peterborough, and how quickly were you sort of ingrained into the city? Starting going to school, interacting with locals, how was that? As you said you didn't encounter many English kids during the time in the camp.

Akbar Vohra

Yeah, so Peterborough’s got a history of having many immigrant communities there. So a lot of Polish and particularly Italian people lived in Peterborough already. The London Brick Company and British Sugar were based in Peterborough, they had encouraged a lot of Italians from Naples and many Poles, maybe the Poles originally came from the war because obviously you had The Fens just around the corner. So maybe I'm not sure the origins of the Polish people, but certainly most of the people who were from Italy were from southern Italy, Naples and Sorento and places like that. And I think that Margaret Lane randomly found houses and therefore [there] wasn’t necessarily an area full of Asians of any sort. Most of the Asians were of Pakistani origin anyway, we were one of the first families to get to Peterborough. Next door neighbours were an English retired couple, son was a Detective Inspector, on the other side was an English family that I really didn't interact that much with, and I can’t remember them that well. My brother does, I don't. And then the next one was an Italian family with a very garrulous and outgoing son who was a year younger than me, who I made very good friends with. So he was kind of my best friend and has been for a long time, I've lost touch with him now. So Tony was there and so he was kind of the best link for us. And he loved telling you things and therefore interacted well with him in terms of out of school things. That's for me. My mum and dad were helped a lot by the neighbours next door, the retired couple, who showed them how to light a fire and where the coal bunkers were, and how there were different types of coal for one or the other. Whether it was for the water heating or for the fire grate to heat yourself up, and other things related to shopping etc. And my younger sister Mumtaz was almost always round theirs and they adopted her really and looked after and showed her a lot of things to do. So they were very helpful to my parents, the other family was very good. When I went to school, because I was better than most of them in terms of educational achievements it was easy for me to integrate. I didn't really relate well with any of the Pakistani kids. I remember one of them coming up to me and telling me that it was my fault that racism had increased, we'd come to the UK and made it bad. So I just played with classmates, which I did in Uganda, so why would you do it any differently there. Just as you wouldn't necessarily play with the year below or year above if you had a group. Maybe we interacted a bit with the second stream of kids, but you really didn't really talk that much with the other kids anyway, unless it was football or cricket or hockey or something. So integration wasn't that difficult for me, my English was fine. We had school assembly in Uganda, where you stood and the teacher gave you the usual pep talk at the start, so it was no different to coming to school in Peterborough. You went to school assembly, you sang the Lord’s Prayer and listen to the headmaster announcements and whatever, and it's only recently I've realised that none of the Pakistani kids went to school assembly. They felt it was too Christian or something and therefore they didn't integrate at all, which I'm a bit shocked at and disappointed [at] that. That if you don't join in with basic school things, how will you ever join in otherwise, even if you didn't understand their language, but that's my brother telling me this and obviously you all just sat in your own stream at different levels, but it's true I can't remember any of the other Asians being there, one of those oddities. So school, we’d all walk to school, Wayne and a couple of others, Robo, would come down the road, as with Martin who lived round the corner. Knock on the door, pick me up and we’d all just walk to school, unless they were off or something in which case you went on your own. So your timing was such. The houses were around a square so you had terraced houses on each of the four roads in the middle was a field and your gardens backed into this field. So you play rugby or whatever, it was not a properly lawned or playing area kind of place, but you met everyone there. So you just played with them or else you went to a field nearby to play football. So it was all about integrating there. I didn't feel I could get into any of the clubs, my parents didn't encourage it up anyway they didn't push me towards it, but I always felt that my colour would affect my getting into a Cricket Club or something like that. So didn't do that, didn't join the scouts or anything. For a while I didn't get picked in the cricket team until the teacher asked. It was usually the captain of the team who would pick the rest of the squad, and it was only when one of the teachers said “Why are you not in the cricket match?” and I said “Well you know I haven’t been picked” and obviously he had a word with the captain and said “You need to get him in there because I have watched him play” and I was [picked]. And obviously he was a bit annoyed at first he said “You better score a few runs otherwise…”, which I did, so twenty runs in two overs or something and so got into there. I was tiny really, I’m not tall now, but I was even more tiny then and my friends were all pretty tall and my school was well known for its sports. Particularly did well in rugby, my best friends were all the rugby players, and so there was never a problem in the school grounds or playing fields with anything in terms of getting on with it. I’m not aware of any direct racist behaviour towards me, apart from the odd comment now and again, and people got corrected appropriately by friends. South African apartheid was big then, and more probably at Uni then growing up, so you know till 18. Obviously I was in in Peterborough for about six years. Had the odd you know, I can remember going to one of the playing fields where we normally played football which is in the grounds of a Sports Club and no one was there and someone saw me there and shouted at me and told me to clear off, but he might have done that to almost anyone. I found that the guys were playing elsewhere. South Africa was big so I was always wary of anyone with a South African accent, even at university I tended to not speak to them. I remember a couple of the doctors who were trainers sounding South African and I was always wary, my impression was they’d be horrible to me, so I just didn’t interact with them. You know if you don't speak to them, there's no risk of any adverse event really, it was the best way of managing it.

Max Russel

So would you say that Peterborough overall was, it sounds like even when there were comments you had people who stuck up for you, so would you say it was a welcoming atmosphere? Where you aware of the hostility towards Ugandan Asians arriving in the UK is that something that you started to realise?

Akbar Vohra

I was aware of anti-Asian sentiments and obviously the Pakistani kids particularly would really highlight it. And usually at the end of school year there was the usual throwing flower bombs and whatever else, and to be fair we picked on one of the smaller Catholic schools that was next to us more than each other. But often a lot of the kids would pick on the Pakistani kids when they’re throwing flower bombs at the end of the academic year. And I can remember one of them [schoolkid] running up to me and was going to throw something at me [and someone] said “No he's too small leave him alone” and then ran off somewhere. So there was, and in terms of joining clubs and things didn't even try it. Maybe I would have [been able], because when I look at the papers one of the 16 year old Ugandans who was a very good cricketer was in the newspapers for being one of the best bowlers, and he was in the club in Peterborough. So maybe it was me not making the effort to engage with clubs, but I assumed they wouldn't want me anyway. So the answer is yes I was aware that there was racism and my impression was there's certain areas which are no go areas. So don't try and join the club, you'll be rejected, don't go there, you'll be rejected, and stick with the people who know you and will be your friends. So play football with the friends that you've made at school, play cricket, play tennis with friends, and my friends were English, Italian, Polish, a whole mix. That whole area was. There were no Asians where we lived. There was a specific area where the Asians lived. The Pakistani kids lived in Cromwell Road area, so that was an area that you knew was full of Asians, and they probably did have some violence towards them. There were some areas of Peterborough that I wouldn't go to because I was always wary how you might be treated as a different coloured person.

Max Russel

And for your parents how did they find integration, [getting] work as well?

Akbar Vohra

So I think my mum’s English wasn't that good, but she did get a job and she did learn English, and she didn't work for a while and then she did start working through friends who said “Look I’m working why don’t you come and do some?” you know working for McCains, and there was another frozen foods manufacture that she worked with. So she got on with people there. My dad, I can remember one day coming to talk and he's talking to me and he said, maybe it was all of us but I feel he was just talking to me only, he said “I've been offered a promotion within six months”. He was saying “I’ve been offered a promotion. I don't think I'm going to take it because I think the other workers will get very upset that I've only just arrived and I'm getting promoted”. So he obviously had some negative vibes from colleagues, which I presume is because of racism, although you know if you have been offered something you should have taken it. I didn't agree or disagree with him really, it’s his decision. So they potentially had that, but as I said the neighbours were terrific, neither of them were worried about what they were going to do, where they were going to walk around. The area we lived in was fairly deprived really, you know the analogy would be Keeping Up Appearances, the sort of houses, the people the way they lived there, some of the houses were as bad as that, with old bits of furniture in the garden and things. Ours wasn't, but there were others like that. One area you knew was a bit more potentially difficult that I used to walk through. I remember being shocked at the school bully offering me a lift on his bike. I thought “What’s going on here you’re actually making me sit on your crossbar and taking me to school”. But I think you avoid dangers and you embrace positive things, was I think how my parents brought me up, and that's what they did. So we didn't have broken windows, we didn't have any of that, and all the neighbours, even when we moved from the original house there were no Asians again. They were all you know, Irish couple next door, English next door the other way. They all just got on with each other. So didn't particularly find anything, and maybe it’s a thing about Peterborough that you had other foreigners Italians and Poles and whatever else there.

Max Russel

And were you in Peterborough for six years before you went to university?

Akbar Vohra

Yeah

Max Russel

And were you able to as a family to keep up the culture, the food as well, that you had been [having] in Uganda. Obviously you also mentioned that you had servants in Uganda, so did home life change a lot, or again you adapted?

Akbar Vohra

So clearly [it was] a big change for my parents, temperature for a start. My mum always did things anyway. Food potentially was an issue, but because there was an established Asian area they could buy foods that they wanted essentially from that area, and there’s only a few spices you need and the rest of it is onions, tomatoes or whatever isn't it. So in terms of food and things no different. Eating toast, cornflakes etc. wasn't any different to being in Uganda, perhaps you had more dried toast then you did in the UK. The cold, needing heaters was something new. Having to light the fire was something. I remember icicles on the inside of the window at home in Star Road, and you just dressed appropriately to stay warm but that was standard for everyone. And it was nice when we moved to the other house that we had central heating there. So we were in Star Road for less than four years and then we moved to South Street. So that was okay, nice big four bedroom house. So in terms of domestic and just integration, apart from the big shock of having to move there, and probably not having as many Asian friends as they might have was perhaps a problem. I don't think my mum particularly saw it as a problem I don't think, you know my dad was working anyway so I don't think they particularly found it to be a big problem. There were enough Hindus around that spoke Gujarati for my mum and that's how she got into the work as well. I think maybe that was one of the reasons she went to work was actually social, it wasn't the money. It was more social interaction with other people who you could talk to, and get out and things, because obviously you know the cold days and dark days and nights in winter do not encourage you to go out and about. And I remember going to lots of weddings and things in Uganda and not so many, if any, in the UK after arrival.

Max Russel

You mentioned the gujarati, that social element, you said you were one of the first families to arrive. When others did arrive did your parents seek them out, or did they seek you out [as a family]? You said for example the Pakistani community lived in a separate area, Ugandan Asians I assume were a bit more spotted around, but you found each other through temples or social events?

Akbar Vohra

I think it was more social events or they would find you. So Mayur’s family, Mayur is one of the guys you might have interviewed, lived round the corner from us. I wasn't aware of this, I didn't really get to know any of them, but they used to come round and visit. So there was some interaction that way, others were purely from India directly. So mum got to know them as well and once you know a few you get to know more and more. So you’d either go to theirs, and then there were other people that you go to visit in London or somewhere else, or they would come and visit you. So you made trips like that at weekends to go and see people. There wasn't a social centre or something that people went to, but you know as you would with making friends anywhere.

Max Russel

You said you were there for six years you mentioned no go zones was that the same during that whole time or was there sort of towards the end of the 70s a relaxation, did you see any change? Or was it really that whole time, the same attitude towards certain immigrant groups and people of colour?

Akbar Vohra

So I think no go zones were things that probably I put up, more than necessarily they did. Apartheid and all the anti-apartheid regime was very prominent in that time and I was at university from 1978 to 1983 so you kind of listen to all of that going on, with the South Africans being banned from Rugby World, Cricket, all the rest of it. So you were aware of that, and so although I would say that there were areas that were no go areas, it was one where you’d really be wary of because they were different and you didn't go there that often. And I'm not aware that they necessarily instantly changed, they were still like that. Same as I didn’t particularly go to Cromwell Road it wasn't a place that had anything that I wanted to do there, apart from the odd friend from school or college that went there. So it was the time of the skinheads and things like that so you were wary of anyone who was a skinhead, because you never were sure of how they would behave towards you. And it was quite interesting once walking through Woolworths, and you had this skinhead crying away because he’d lost his mates from a football match “I thought you were supposed to be hard”. So we perceive things that may not be there at times, and so this is my perception of what it was, and it wasn't necessarily [that], because some of the areas that I didn't want to go into had Asian people living there have and I’m sure my mum and dad went there a lot. I particularly like the Italian community, I think I engage with them more than anyone else, and even for a while I used to say my name was Pep just to kind of fit in and stuff. So you go through phases don’t you.

Max Russel

During that time, now being in the UK, where you missing Uganda at all?

Akbar Vohra

I don’t actually recall ever reflecting back and thinking “I wish I was there”. Life in [the] UK was good I had good friends, education, everything I wanted was here, family, and new friends. So [I] didn't miss it at all didn't miss the weather, didn't miss anything, the only thing if I look back that we ever missed was the water. When we arrived in Stradishall the horrible chemical taste of water was appalling. I even got a letter from my granddad saying, he visited us, “I have to go back to India because the water here tastes so bad”. So that's probably the only bit I could think of that I ever missed. I missed seeing the bats coming across from bat valley, we lived not far from Bat Valley in Uganda, and at 7 in the evening the whole sky was black with all these bats coming across. Sometimes you got a bit scared because you always had the stories of “They'll latch onto your face and do something to you”. I was interested when they got caught in the electric cables and how they looked the faces, like that of a fox or something, so that was intriguing. And when you went past Bat Valley, the trees had black leaves on them, which is basically all the bats sitting on it. So those are probably the only two things, and obviously friends. As it was, I mean I can remember meeting Mukesh who was my best friend in Uganda, in Uni in Manchester. But we didn't actually then go forward and firm up anything he was just sat in the coffee room and I can remember seeing him and I said “Are you from Uganda?” “Yes” “Are you from Kampala?” “Yes “Was your dad an accountant?” “Yes” “Is your name Mukesh?” “Yes”. He didn't recognise me but I’d recognised him. That's as far as it got, I’ve never met him since. So the short answer is no, I didn't really miss any of the Uganda and didn't reflect back thinking “I wish I was back there again”.

Max Russel

Did your siblings and parents feel the same do you think?

Akbar Vohra

Yeah I think, you know my mum and dad were born in India moved to Uganda and next move was the UK, and you make a house where you are. We were born in Uganda. Up till seeing one of the documentaries I've always called myself Ugandan and then I watched one of the ITV documentaries where all the Ugandans were being interviewed and I found that very upsetting and questioned whether I'm now Ugandan or really I'm English, and I think I’m veering more towards being English now, lived here longer anyway. But that one documentary really upset me listening to some of the Africans, Ugandans, talking about what they thought we were like, even though we were born there.

Max Russel

So that was something that you said no one talked about that at the time, none of the African students. But seeing that now do you think there were those underlying tensions when you were there?

Akbar Vohra

There clearly were, which weren’t overt to me, maybe because I was still a kid, there was never anything like that in school because you were all pals and friends. So there was never any anti-Asian rhetoric as far as I can remember there from anyone really. Even walking to school on the streets, no one picked on you for being Asian and I didn't feel that until I watched this documentary, and documentaries obviously drag out people particularly for their own points of view. It might only be one in a million, but it is one in ten on that documentary.

Max Russel

In terms of that identity, veering more towards English, is it a regional attachment, a city attachment, people how do you see yourself?

Akbar Vohra

So when I'm abroad I always tell people I'm British, maybe of Ugandan or Indian origins, but British. Otherwise it’s more family, I’ve lived in Macclesfield for 35 odd years or so, so very much into this, but I think any of Britain would be fine. I'm comfortable being part of any of the UK. And you know I see so many positives there when you go abroad, when you go to India you notice the racism that goes on there, more religious segregation and problems, which are worse than here. So I think you're part of a very tolerant society where, there are issues but people have their own points of view. What I would say to some people is that “when did you become British”? Because if you look back you might say you're English but were you not from Denmark 300 years ago or whatever, or part of the Spanish Armada that landed in Ireland or north of Scotland after they got trounced. So we all have origins. The day that we don't talk about it is the day everyone's equal. You shouldn't have to talk about colour, gender, race, origins as being anything special because everyone's equally special. So whilst I relate to that, I don't feel strongly about any one thing, as it is I’ve had people speaking Spanish to me in India, thinking I'm Spanish. When I go to Spain people think I’m Spanish, when I'm in Italy they think I'm Italian, when I'm in France they thought I’m French. So clearly you know I could have been a good spy. So people make impressions don't they and you just have to be true to how you feel for yourself and just remember that most of this is just a label that you can use to injure someone or engage with someone.

Max Russel

And in terms of Uganda, have you gone back? Do you have any desire to go back?

Akbar Vohra

I do have a desire. So in 2019/20 I had organised links with one of the hospitals in Gulu, in northern Uganda, plus some people in Kampala, to do some teaching and training. Then Covid hit, so scuppered all that, and I haven't resurrected that as yet. So academically and teaching wise I have been all over the world teaching and lecturing. It would have been nice to go to Uganda and give something back, being my country of birth, and maybe I will. I’m not working that hard on it currently.

Max Russel

And finally you got involved in BUA50 last year. Why do you think it's important to document this history and also maybe reflect on it, and what do you think people can learn it as well?

Akbar Vohra

I think history is so important isn't it. You don't realise that how you repeat the same errors and how you could actually repeat the same positive things if you thought it through. We write history from our own perspective and you do need multiple perspectives into how things happen for example you would say “well Ugandan Asians must have been brilliant because so many of them have done so well we should be celebrating it”, I suppose sort of it is a fact you might say. I also think that actually if you look back, a great PhD project would be to look at, we were expelled with no chance of return therefore we probably reinvested all our monies and our energies into here. Which is why we grew better than another immigrant who had half a family to support in Poland or wherever else, Ukraine even, and they will go back and they won't invest 100% into there. So the potential from growth for one community isn't just because of the innate abilities, it may be other social factors that affected [it]. I've watched, more than helped, my kids looking at the history of World War Two and all the things that happened to the Jewish population. There was a lot to learn from that, I think there's a lot to learn from this. You know we're now part of the British culture, there's a lot to celebrate. A lot of history that perhaps you can look at in terms of how you [go] from being an immigrant to local and integrating, and what journeys people went through, go through, is all part of British culture. and it would be fascinating. There's so much to learn from experiences that are real, even though they’re from a personal point of view they're not inferred by you, about how I think for example, but actually me saying how I think. That may be lost if we let it happen, archaeologists and historians are great at trying to get data, as my daughter says you know “Nothing is fact”. For a change we have a chance for seeing inferred fact from the people who have lived through it, and people will learn a lot, and if there are hundreds and thousands of people who have gone through it or have family who have gone through it and the generations following then they'll have a lot to learn and history should be enriched. History lessons should be enriched so I think that this Ugandan history as part of the curriculum would be fascinating for lots of reasons, not just as a historical thing but also in terms of social actions and motives. My impression is that the biggest proportion of volunteers were people who came with affiliations with the churches and every single volunteer you look at that I've seen has a church connection, from that 50 years ago, Christians. And so you have to reflect back how societies are built up of different factions, for want of a better word, who can all get on together, who will have different thoughts, but can all still be positive. And that’s a part of some of the history we should look at and probably us talking here isn't enough. There are probably more things you could interrogate me on and others on that we’re probably only scratching the surface with. That perhaps that this should be the next step up and perhaps the kids of the immigrants expellees that have come from Uganda may want more knowledge about their identity, and perhaps they should be promoting and looking into it more closely before it gets lost.

Max Russel

I think that's a great point end on. Thank you so much Akbar.

Akbar Vohra

Thank you, it was my pleasure.