ANAND DATTANI

So we can start with your dad and mum, what was their journey, their story before Africa?

TARLA MODHA

I think they were struggling because at that time they had my three older brothers and my sister, four of them [in total], and from India my mum and dad they went to Ramisi or Mombasa, I can't remember but then they came to Kakira and he [my father] was a farmer for Madhvani and he used to grow lots of fresh vegetables and at the same time we would have fresh vegetables and fruits every day from the farming and sugar cane was the biggest [crop] because they used to grow big fields of sugar cane.

ANAND DATTANI

Did they did they come from India because they had the choice and they wanted to come?

TARLA MODHA

No I think for my father at that time he did not have a choice but I think he decided to make a better life for himself and his family. That's why he moved out of India to better himself because at that time India was very poor, even in the towns there were no lights, so I think he wanted a better life for himself and his family so he moved from India to Mombasa and Ramisi and in Ramisi he had a restaurant where he was a cook and people would come and have their dinners there and from there he went from Mombasa to Kakira.

ANAND DATTANI

And then you were born in?

TARLA MODHA

Kakira. I think I was 13 when I came here [to the UK] I remember that, so I had school for one and a half years here in Leicester and I was the only Asian girl in my class.

ANAND DATTANI

What was your memory of growing up in Kakira?

TARLA MODHA

Oh god it was great, it was really happy, no fear of anything at all, just enjoying each and every moment. Even in the grammar school we had African [classmates] but we were all friendly like a family.

ANAND DATTANI

I find that interesting to note because Idi Amin and the media focused on the fact that between the black Ugandan Africans and the Ugandan Asians there was a lot of tension and not a lot of trust, was that what you experienced?

TARLA MODHA

No not on our side we didn’t, because at the school I would be sitting next to a girl who was African, and we would be playing together doing everything together like everybody else. The majority in our school and classes were Asian people and then Africans as well but not as many as Asian, Africans were a bit less than Asians and we still keep in touch even now some of the classmates.

ANAND DATTANI

Was it only the Africans who could afford to go [that were at that school]?

TARLA MODHA

Yes, I think only the people whose dads were working and had the money, because they were willing to pay the fees for the school, but the majority didn’t.

ANAND DATTANI

And what would you normally do after school?

TARLA MODHA

First thing was homework and then I would help my mum preparing food and then playing out with the girl next door and the girls in the town and we all gathered together and we would sing bhajans, we used to pick mangoes, and then we used to cook mogo and motoki outside and make a fire and it was so lovely.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you have any particular memories of how close the community was?

TARLA MODHA

Yeah, the community was like a family.

ANAND DATTANI

Just with other Hindu Indians or…?

TARLA MODHA

We only had Hindu people [in our community] because it was about 10 houses where we lived so all of them were Hindus, Gujaratis, so we were all just like one big family. So even if we were playing outside, we would just eat something outside we didn’t have to worry that this is the time we have to get home, this is dinner time etc. But, in the evening, 7:00 o'clock was a deadline to be indoors.

ANAND DATTANI

But not because you didn’t feel safe?

TARLA MODHA

No, it was just [the norm] for girls at the time and we were young at the time so that's why my mum was very cautious about girls being outside, my brothers would be out till 9:00 o'clock at night, it was just [for the] girl’s safety. Because where we were we didn't have telephones or phones in the house, we only had one in the middle [of the town]. We had a big office where I think a guarded person manning the office would watch out over our small town. We were in a place called Chiko and then there was another place called Chiko and there was a swimming pool [there] so lots of people from quite faraway places used to travel to that place and they would pass through our town and we would just sit on that veranda of that office and watch all the cars going by and it was so lovely just seeing different cars and you think “Oh god they're beautiful cars, one day when I grow up I'll buy a Mazda” because we didn’t have cars at that time it was only trucks, motorbikes and bikes. So, it was quite fascinating all of us just sitting on that veranda watching the cars going by and all the people were going there because it was the only place with a swimming pool. And we used to go there as well with a truck full of all the children, adults, everybody, like a picnic day out.

ANAND DATTANI

What was the feeling when you would see [the cars] was it more appreciation rather than jealousy, that there are people with cars?

TARLA MODHA

No jealousy at all, we didn’t feel that at that time because we were brought up that way as one community, we have to live with it and just put up with it. We didn’t have toys at that time like how children have now, there were no mobile phones, no telephone in the house, so for us one phone in the office was [a] luxury. So, if somebody had to call us, they would call on that phone and then the man would come running and say “There's a phone call for you” so my dad or brother would go. And [at] that time we appreciated what we had and [a] happy life basically just going to do our schoolwork and when there is a Diwali or Navaratri we all used to go in Kakira to have these big functions there and that was really nice, all the family got together. I call them family because they were all family really, all the neighbours, the towns, we were in Chiko, then there was Karongo, there was Oil Mill and then Kabiaza and Kakira, so they were small towns, and they were all neighbours and all friendly and we knew each other because we studied together in school. So [the] children became our friends automatically and we used to go to their house, and they used to come to our house.

ANAND DATTANI

And how many siblings did you have?

TARLA MODHA

Six

ANAND DATTANI

Did you have to help with the business?

TARLA MODHA

Not really my father would go to work in the morning from 8 till 6-8 [in the evening], all day he was out at work. My mum was at home and I’ve got two younger sisters than me so they were young at the time. So my mum had been always busy with bringing up the children and at that time we had, how do you say, “servants” like Africans, they used to help us with house chores, washing, all those sort of thing so it was a bit easier in a way for my mum rather than just doing it all by herself. But you know in those days we used to look after our younger siblings a lot and we were protective of them so it did help my mum in a way, all of us growing up together, because its only about two years difference between us so we are all friends because we used to play with each other and you don't feel that is your brother or sister you know, we just got on so well with each other and when you are young you’re protective of each other so it was really good life in Africa, it was really sad that we had to leave. When Idi Amin mentioned in the paper [the expulsion] we all thought it was a joke, nobody took any notice of it for a month, and then suddenly my god you know everybody was panicking that “no it’s not a joke, it’s real” that we had to get out and that was I think a bombshell for me, I remember that I still remember that, oh my god.

ANAND DATTANI

How did your daily life change after the announcement?

TARLA MODHA

Oh my god we were scared after, when we knew that we had to leave, and it was just like we were counting days to get out because all these armed officers with rifles were roaming around on motorbikes frightening people to get out as soon as possible “don't wait for 30 days”. But my father had to gather money for all of us for the tickets to get out and to come to England, so it took us time to get out. I'm not sure if we were the last ones or one of the last two or three families to leave that town but when we left, in our house there were big, nice pictures of Lord Krishna, all that we had to leave behind.

ANAND DATTANI

Did you have a chance to sell anything?

TARLA MODHA

No nothing at all. Even the Africans their moods changed as well, I don't know why, they must have known that this is going on in their language. I remember that in Swahili they were saying that “the Wahindi are going out” but our servant was crying when we left, he was very upset he didn’t want us to go, but we had to go. Because their life would have been really, I don't know where they are now, but because of us they were better, working for us we were paying money to them.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you think a lot of the Africans were scared?

TARLA MODHA

I think they were scared because where we lived Africans were happy because of us and they knew that we would [supply] food & clothes and they were so happy that they were getting all these things and after when we were leaving they were crying because they were thinking what it would be like [without us] and I still remember our servant said “Take me with you” begging us that he wanted to come with us and we said “It’s not possible to take you there”. They had even become our friends because whatever food was left in the evening, they would eat in the evening shared between themselves, so they were happy, their life was happy while we were there, now I don’t know what things are like there. Because they wouldn't get food because they wouldn't get money for a start [if we weren’t there] and then they can’t buy food so they'll be starving and some of them wouldn't marry because they can't afford to live with the family.

ANAND DATTANI

So what do you remember of the those days leading up to when you left?

TARLA MODHA

I think those days were scary for a start and I still remember our servant used to come every day and beg us to stay and we said “We can't stay” because we have to go out, everybody is going. For us it was frightening, we just wanted to safely get out because every day in the news they were saying that they shot this many people and I still remember somebody we knew had a bullet in his leg because he was shot while he was running to get out and it was frightening, I can't describe how frightening it was just to get out.

ANAND DATTANI

How much were you allowed to take with you?

TARLA MODHA

We were not allowed to take anything, not even money or valuables, we didn’t have any gold anyway [and] my father didn't have much money either so we just came on the plane and my brother was here [in the UK] luckily and my brother who was here he used to send some money to my dad because for so many siblings at one time to buy the tickets to get on the plane was a bit worrying for my father at that time. Even when you are young you can sense all these things you know, but it was frightening I can tell you that. I still remember that when we reached Entebbe, a full truck of people coming to Entebbe, there were long long queues and we had to wait for a plane to come and oh my god you know these armed people, oh my god they were talking loudly and when they're walking beside you, you think they're going to hit you in a minute the way they looked [at you]. It was really scary and long long hours we had to wait at Entebbe airport to get on the plane just to get out of Uganda.

ANAND DATTANI

Did you know anything about where you were going, did you hear anything of what the UK was like, what London was like?

TARLA MODHA

No nothing at all, only that my brother was here, and he would tell us sometimes that it used to snow a lot here in the winter months and we knew that sort of thing, like seasons, but apart from that nothing, no.

ANAND DATTANI

So, in school or even in the news there wasn't much talk about England?

TARLA MODHA

No nothing at all about England, about what the life would be like. Sometimes I think to myself, because my brother was here, thank god that we were able to come here or we would have ended up in India or somewhere else, we don't know, we just had to get out and it could have been anywhere really. I think first choice would have been India.

ANAND DATTANI

Why was you brother here in the first place?

TARLA MODHA

Because two years before us he came here with one of his friends to better his life and study and work, because I think in Kakira there was only up to JS1 or JS2 I'm not sure up to what level schooling was, so he came here to study further but then he wasn't able to because we all came here when he just found a job and [then he only] worked because we all had to start working straight away, anybody who could get a job. One brother got a job in Walkers Crisps straight away which was really good. So as soon as the money started coming in, we could better our life, start buying our clothes, start to change our ways of life here. I think I was nearly 14, and at 15 and a half I left school after CSE and then I got a job straight away because one thing that was fascinating was that ladies can work in this country whereas in Africa ladies were not allowed to go to work and for me that was I thought “Oh I want to finish school quickly and I want to work”

ANAND DATTANI

What do you remember about when you first stepped off the plane?

TARLA MODHA

It was really freezing cold because it was the 12th of October and at that time you know the snow in the 70s, my god it used to be freezing cold, but when we landed at Heathrow airport there were lots of volunteers and my brother came to pick us up and there was a volunteer with him, they joined my brother and they took us to Leicester. They had blankets, they gave us all blankets, and we just wrapped [up in them] and [went] to Leicester. A few days after my brother took us in Lewis’s [Department Store]. I still remember the town centre in Leicester he said “Let’s go and get your winter coats because it's very cold here” so we went with him, and we started from there our journey.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you know what happened to people who came here but didn't have someone here already?

TARLA MODHA

Yeah, they went into the camps all over the place, like my two older brothers and my sister they were with their families, they all had to go to the camps. My eldest brother he’s in Wales, he settled down in Wales, because they were sent from the camp to Wales. My other brother is settled down in Ilford they were sent to, I think it was Exeter, and from there they moved to East Ham. So we were all scattered, my sister ended up in Eastbourne in Sussex, but then our family was in Leicester so my father said “Better to be here” so they moved to Leicester eventually, so they're all settled in Leicester now.

ANAND DATTANI

How did it end up being so scattered, was it that they didn't have a choice when they came?

TARLA MODHA

They didn’t have any choice because they didn’t have any place because my brother who rented a house for us it was only a two-bedroom house, small house, so we all can’t fit in there, so my sister's family they had to go to the camp, my two brothers and their families had to go into the camp and they stayed in a camp, god knows how many weeks.

ANAND DATTANI

And I guess there was no way to get in touch with them?

TARLA MODHA

No because I did ask them, and they said that they were there for a month at least and then they were in a line for a queue to get places to be sent to.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you know what their experience was in the camp?

TARLA MODHA

Yeah, my nephew who lives in Ilford he's got a lot of experience because he stayed in a camp, and I was telling him that I'm going to do this interview and he said “If they want to know anything let me know” he said “Then I will be there to give my interview”.

ANAND DATTANI

Definitely.

TARLA MODHA

I don't if anybody's interested to take an interview from him?

ANAND DATTANI

Yeah [we] definitely will.

TARLA MODHA

Because he's lived in a camp and I think they were offered a place, they were saying at that time, they were sending people to New Zealand, they were offering the house, job, everything there but because my brother said “We're all family here” he didn’t want to go so they settled down in Ilford in the end. And now you think that, god wish he had gone, the situation is getting that way now that people want to get out of Britain now and settle somewhere else. But what can you do at the time, it was that time that you had to decide to go or not.

ANAND DATTANI

And then you said you studied here for one to one and a half years?

TARLA MODHA

Yes one and a half years, me and my younger sister, we didn't get a place near our house, it was miles away for a secondary school, we took two buses and that wasn't good because in the winter when you are just coming into this country you don’t know the buses, [the] numbers, you can’t go on any bus there is a particular number bus going to your school. But slowly we learnt together, me and my sister, and when I was on my own there were no peers in the class I was given to show me the ropes, how does everything work, because the education was totally different here and there. I still remember I started in 4th year, and I was told to write an essay in English, and I thought “What is an essay, what do I have to do?”. I went home and told my brother who's older than me “Look I've been given this essay what do I have to do how many words? They are saying 150 words or 550 or something” and I thought “Oh god how am I going to do this?” and I was scared and my brother said “It’s like making a story you have to write about something” and I said “I haven’t got anything to write about, what do I write about?” so I can still remember I just made-up my own story with less words, a small essay, and the teacher called me and said that he will need [more] than this, this is very small and I said “Okay next time I'll do [more] and then I moved to 5th year, then I got to know what essays were so I did my exams and I got the CSE and then I thought “That's it I've finished the school, get out of it”.

ANAND DATTANI

What were the attitudes of the other kids, or the teacher?

TARLA MODHA

I don't think they liked us, you can tell from way they looked at you for a start, and in my class I still remember there were some boys, I had this nose stud, a gold one, from a young age five I had my nose pierced I always had that and at first everybody laughed at me and I didn't know why they were laughing and it was this nose stud they used to make mischiefs about it and I told my teacher. They used to fall or run behind me, I still remember that, and I took that out [the stud] and I told my mum “I'm not wearing this because they’re making fun of me” so I did that and then there were some boys who used to just tease us daily you know just “Get out pakis, just get out” they used to say some words but we didn't take any notice we just carried on.

ANAND DATTANI

Was that what your parents told you, just to keep your head down?

TARLA MODHA

I never told my mum that this is going on at school, you think that it is just childish that we are complaining for nothing, if you complain too much and if they chuck us out of school where would we go? So I was very frightened that if I complain I would be chucked out of school where would I go? So I didn't tell anybody. Even at lunchtime they used to play badminton and they wouldn’t let us play, we would just sit and watch, that was it.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you think, especially when kids are young, do you think they were doing it really to actually hurt you or it was just ignorance because you looked different?

TARLA MODHA

I don't know, I think because they knew that all the refugees are coming and I think that even in the newspaper there was an article in Leicester saying that they don't want any more Asians in Leicester and I think schools were getting a bit fed up of taking children, us, in their schools because my younger sister, I think it was nearly a year until she got a place anywhere. I remember when we came from Africa, I mean Uganda, we didn’t get a place straight away so we were going to, all the refugees who came from Uganda, in one of these Church Halls they used to have a playground, playgroups, everybody to get together and pass time so we would just go there with other children and talk with them and [they had] the same experiences as us and we knew they were from Uganda, but different parts of Uganda, so that is how we used to share our stories and talk with them, play games, and then come back home.

ANAND DATTANI

What was it like to interact with the Hindus and Indians and Bangladeshis that were not from Uganda, the ones who had come directly from the [Indian Subcontinent]?

TARLA MODHA

They were not accepting us quickly; it took time to accept [us]. And in Leicester the shopkeepers opposite our house, because our house was on the main road, so just opposite we had lots of shops like vegetable shops, supermarkets, post office, and my father used to go there to buy vegetables and when they came to know my father was a religious man and does these sort of religious ceremonies and all these things they became friends and they would come to our house to see my mum and they would sit with my mum for ages and just became friends and then if my father bought bulk rice or flour or wheat or anything they would just deliver it home and they became so close like family and because we had those family bonds in Uganda we wanted families like that to be here as well, part of us, so we just became friends from then onwards. My mum had an eye problem from Uganda, she could see only shadows, and then when we came here everybody said “In England they're very good doctors they will make you better, so have your operation done here” so at the Royal Infirmary in Leicester the doctor said that “She might be able to see after the operation, we can see what we can do” but even when we did the operation at that time they didn't give us a guarantee that she wouldn’t go blind, and she did go blind. One eye she could not see at all and the other eye she could only see a shadow but after the operation she could not see at all, even that shadow light was gone, so it was really shocking for us at that time, we didn't know what to do so we just accepted it and my mum suffered. Therefore, I had to leave school as soon as my exams finished because I was the older girl in the family. So my father did the cooking and everything, but I used to help him and together we managed and my mum sort of got used to being in the house walking around. When we came here she had a shadow eyesight so she knew where the steps were, where the kitchen was, but it was really difficult for her and now I think sometimes that we could have sued the doctor who did the operation that when you say that “She would be able to see after the operation” and it had completely gone, but at that time we were not knowledgeable people coming from Uganda, 1972 we came, and 1973/74 she had the operation.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you think that because also you were considered these refugees, these outsiders, immigrants that you felt you couldn't [challenge them]?

TARLA MODHA

Yes, because I think there was not much explanation given to us about the operations, about what could go wrong that would make people think twice to go for these surgeries, but no they were just saying that she would be able to see and be able to see better than what she could see now. Because I remember I used to go with her to the hospital for appointments so it was just a shock for all of us that she couldn't see any of us, even my children's faces she could not see, she could feel them, just touching them, but sometimes you think “Did we do the right thing to do that?” but what can you do, sometimes what is meant to be has happened.

ANAND DATTANI

When did you try and look for work after this?

TARLA MODHA

When I was finishing school there was a career officer coming into schools so luckily I found a job close to my home, it was a mail order [clothing company] and we just had to do admin work and it was quite close to my home, I was just walking a distance of 10 minutes so I just took that job so I could be close to home, coming home at lunchtime to make sure my parents are okay, and finishing at half three/four o'clock.

ANAND DATTANI

Did you find it harder to find to get a job compared to the other children in your school?

TARLA MODHA

I think at the time in the careers office they were offering the best jobs to certain students, I found that out, but luckily, because I still remember I applied for, the Gas Board and at Grattan’s, so the Gas Board was bit further away, I would have to change and get two buses, and my father said “No, better find a job close to the home” and I said “Alright” and then that's why I took this job. At that time there were a lot of jobs in Leicester so luckily you wouldn't go that long without a job, so it was very easy for school leavers to get a job straightaway, it wasn’t bad.

ANAND DATTANI

Mainly you were working with English people, Asian?

TARLA MODHA

Yes there were English people and Asian people, it was mixed.

ANAND DATTANI

But you were treated the same?

TARLA MODHA

Yeah we were all treated equally but sometimes you could see in your manager [preferences] but we just got on because we thought at least it’s a job and we're earning money so just carry on doing it and I only worked there six years then I got married and moved to Harrow where my husband was.

ANAND DATTANI

Before you came here, it was a very difficult traumatic time, did you see that really affect some of the Ugandan Asians that you know here?

TARLA MODHA

I think yes, like my parents, it must have affected my father a lot because my father was very active, he was a cook, he was like a priest, he was doing all sorts, going out doing things and when we came here all that was gone, and he was stuck indoors and he wanted to go out to work and he would understand English but he wouldn't be able to speak, so it was difficult for him to go to work. So then my brothers said that he doesn't need to work and we will work and because my mum became blind, so luckily he was with my mum all the time and together they would pass time like that, so it was good, because he could read Gujarati so he could read some books, watch television, religious programmes, so that kept them going really.

ANAND DATTANI

I think it's easier when you were younger to learn some things. Like you were saying about the laundry machine.

TARLA MODHA

Yes, exactly that's right when we came here because there were so many of us, everyday clothes [needed to be cleaned] but we didn’t have a washing machine, all these new gadgets everybody didn't have them at the time, so we had to go to the laundry to do the washing every 3-4 days. At first when we knew where the laundry was, my older brother who was here already showed us were the laundry was, so me and my brother and my elder sister we all filled up black bags and we all walked to the laundry and filled two machines up and we had to put those 20 pence pieces [in] and you struggle to put the [right ones in] 5p, 10p, all those coins were different at that time, they’ve all changed now, and oh my god we could [only] put change in and you go to the shop next door [and they would say] “Don't come here for your laundry machine change” they would tell us like that. You had one other shop, and they would say that “We don't have any change” because they knew you want it for the laundry, so they used to treat kids like that yeah, so we made sure that we had the right money to put in the laundry.

It was fun at the time but now you think after some years, it does come to you and hits you that anywhere I go on Holiday, it doesn't feel like Uganda. If I have to go on holiday to Uganda if somebody said “Go to Uganda” I think I would live there, but now it wouldn’t’ be the same because at that time I had my parents I had my siblings with me growing up together, now they are not there so I don't think I would enjoy to live there.

ANAND DATTANI

Have you been back?

TARLA MODHA

No, I haven't but some of my friends have, and they say that Chiko is really good they’ve done it up and I think the Madhvanis, some of the family is still there. Because this Chiko was famous for a swimming pool that's why people used to go a lot there and I still remember somebody did die one time because the water was very deep, and he went suddenly in the deep end so it was frightening.

All the foods tropical, I can picture in my head, I shut my eyes and I can picture where was the watermelon, where were the coconut trees, all the fruit trees, because where we lived in Uganda we had all these papaya trees, we had a garden and we used to dig mogo from the ground, fresh mogo and all fresh vegetables, fruits and vegetables, you don't taste nothing like that here or India or nowhere else because that was grown freshly in front of your house and you pick it from the tree and you're eating that, now the mango here do you know how much it costs!

ANAND DATTANI

Even more this year!

But where would you call home?

TARLA MODHA

Here because I live here now, maybe where you live is your home, daily you have to make your home, because even if I said Uganda is my home I can’t go back there to live there. It was my home when I lived there, but this is my home really. Because all my family is here, brothers, sisters, so we visit now and then and get together and this is called home really.

ANAND DATTANI

Where your family is.

TARLA MODHA

Yes exactly, and my daughter is not very far, she is only in Milton Keynes, and I have two grandsons, my son is at home working hard. So we just have to live with what we have.

ANAND DATTANI

I think it’s true, there was a struggle, but I think like you say with your kids you’ve been able to give them a home and a life.

TARLA MODHA

Exactly and even now the toys, my grandson is ten, the youngest one, he knows more than me, he will go on my phone and would say things I know nothing about and same thing on the laptop he knows everything, and he sometimes downloads games on my phone, which I wouldn’t do. So these sort of gadgets they have that access to, but because we didn’t have them when we were young we didn’t have that, we used to play with the bicycle wheels and running and those were the sort of the toys we had, my god, playing cards with other friends and just sitting under the tree, embroidery, stitching our holidays.

ANAND DATTANI

The games then you had, even the toys you had to play with other people, now you can just play by yourself.

TARLA MODHA

Exactly if you have your phone you don’t need anybody, but at the time we could not do without friends or families, your siblings and your friends, because you couldn’t play a game on your own like five stones and then there was seven stones and we used to build the small stones and we used to throw the ball and they all had to fall down and then you had to run and they would try to catch me and you need about five to seven people to play that so you can’t play on your own, so you need to have friends. But everybody lived so happily, our friends were like a family and if somebody didn't see you in the bus in the morning going to school they would inquire “Where are you what's wrong with you?” they would ask mum straight away “Tarla wasn't in the bus today is she alright?” and my mum would say “She’s got temperature today, she didn’t go to school today” so it was like looking out for each other. But you know in school they used to hit us a lot, teachers, if we didn't complete our homework or if you didn't know the answer, that was the only bad thing about schooling, was that. Like here they can’t touch children, I know there was a discipline in school about uniform, clothes, shoes, everything, but I think beating is not [allowed anymore]. I still remember my husband was beaten in a school, [the teacher] was saying he didn't finish his homework and he was really beaten badly and then he came home and his legs had red marks and his father asked him “Where did you get these marks from?” and he said “One of the teachers had beaten me up today” and his father phoned the teacher straight away and called her and said “How come you had to hit him like this?” and “If he hadn't finished his homework you should tell him, discipline him, but not hitting like this” and then she apologised. Because I only heard my husband’s story, only the day before yesterday he was telling me, because we were talking about our school life and he said, “Same thing happened to me that I was beaten”. I wasn't beaten luckily, touch wood, but other students were, I have seen that with my own eyes, and I was not happy about that.

ANAND DATTANI

I think it's good to have discipline but that’s too much.

TARLA MODHA

They used to have canes, a special cane, very thin wooden ones and they would just hit with them and it would hurt for days and weeks and would leave red marks, it was terrible, I don't know why they were allowed that. Some of the teachers, like one of the maths teachers, he was very very strict. If he taught you something today and next week he would ask you and if you didn't know the answer you would get a cane. So it was frightening like that, what if I didn't know it? Sometimes children forget. So not everybody would get it right, so those sort of little things would be a bit scary to go to school.

ANAND DATTANI

That’s a very interesting point you make there, obviously some very good things about school there but then also there were somethings that were very difficult compared to here.

TARLA MODHA

You know Madhvani’s son was in my class and he was the same age as me and I still remember him, and I think he was a disabled person, but we still got on very well with him he was a lovely boy and it was his birthday one time and we were all invited to his place and we all had to dress up nicely when you go to that sort of place, and my mum had made me a nice dress to go to this nice birthday party. They treated us so nicely they were there like a family but then we all split up after this Uganda expulsion and I met her [Madhvani’s daughter] when we had a Kakira gathering I think somewhere in Ilford. I think Mr Museveni came there as well and his daughter was there, they all attended, and it was so lovely to talk to them as well, you feel like you are all these Uganda friends.

ANAND DATTANI

Do you anyone that went back to Uganda?

TARLA MODHA

No not really, even if they go for holidays they come back, not to stay. I haven’t heard about anybody going [to stay permanently].

ANAND DATTANI

I heard in the 80s they tried to get people to go back.

TARLA MODHA

Yeah but has anyone gone do you know?

ANAND DATTANI

No not that I know, I think some people did but none that I know.

TARLA MODH

I heard that a lot of people from India are going there. But those who came here I haven't thought that they would like to go there, not to settle back, maybe for holidays, but not to live there. I think it's all changed now; somebody went to Tororo, and my husband was showing his pictures where he was born in Tororo and where he lived, all the houses, the grasses, are grown and it’s not maintained so you wouldn't even recognise it “Was this the place?” so I wonder what Chiko where we were, how that would be [now].

ANAND DATTANI

I went to Jinja 4 years ago.

TARLA MODHA

Did you like it?

ANAND DATTANI

I went to Kampala for a wedding and then my dad came and took me to Jinja to show me.

TARLA MODHA

Did you see his house?

ANAND DATTANI

Where his house was, were the shop was, and he told me how different it was and we went down one street, which was the street he used to go down with his friends and he said “Here there used to be palm trees along the middle, now it's just red sand” so you could see in his face that the memories are there but physically it was not there.

TARLA MODHA

I think for me it would be an emotional trip if I go back where we used to live because I don't think it will be maintained, and my parents for one are not there, because my mum and dad were really my inspiration right from my young age up to this now. Even sometimes [now] I often miss them because some of the dishes I make, I think “Did my dad use this, did my dad put this ingredient in?” and then I try, but it doesn't work that way, so you do remember now and then, a lot. Who can forget parents?

ANAND DATTANI

Now with these [oral history interviews] at least the stories will live on right? And that's why it's nice that you volunteered to do this.

TARLA MODHA

I hope everything I said is true, but you know if somebody listens then they might think that “Is this really true?”

ANAND DATTANI

No, it’s been really eye opening, it was great.