Jeevan Sanghera

The first question I wanted to ask was how did you come to be in Uganda?

Najma Dawoodbhai

I was born in Uganda; my dad was born in Zanzibar and then he came to Uganda in 1947 to make a life for himself. He was only 17 then but he wanted to get away from Zanzibar and his stepparents, so he came to Uganda. Then in 1954 he went to India to get married to my mum who was born in Rajkot, Gujarat and then I was born in 1957.

Jeevan Sanghera

Was the whole family originally from Gujarat before moving [to East Africa]?

Najma Dawoodbhai

My dad was second generation East-African so his grandfather would have been from Gujarat so yes.

Jeevan Sanghera

And in the years growing up there [in Uganda] what was that like when you were young?

Najma Dawoodbhai

It was a carefree, wonderful and a happy life in a sense. We didn't have any major issues at all. We lived in an environment where we were close to just the Asian population and in the primary school, I went to it was predominantly Asian but the secondary school I went to, Old Kampala secondary school, it was different there. By that time 1970/71 when Idi Amin came into power, he had promoted to make sure that the indigenous African population started getting educated so in the schools we came across the Africans studying with us but we didn't really integrate with them, I mean we would make friends with them in [school] because they were classmates but in terms [of outside school] relationships it was not there. [We lived] within the South Asian community and that was across the board different communities not necessarily Muslim or Hindu or Goan or anything it was a very mixed community so there was no discrimination or any issues between different communities either. So quite a carefree life very much so and an enjoyable live with parents who really looked after us and wanted the best for us and had enough wealth to make sure to give us that happiness as well, not that happiness comes from wealth, but it [made life easier]. We were travelling around East Africa; we went across to different parts of the world on holidays. We took things for granted.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you were growing up what was education like, what subjects did you do and what did you enjoy?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Ah that's quite a good question, education in primaries was very much Asian or Indian orientated. In the secondary it was more European; the head teacher was European and [a couple of teachers] my French teacher was from Switzerland and then there was another geography teacher who was from Canada so there were teachers from other parts of the world but a majority were Asian teachers. I would say it was very much a colonial education because we learned about Australia and the UK and I remember learning about different cattle which were bread in the UK so we knew about the Derbyshire cattle and things like that and it was very strange and now thinking back we took it for granted that that was the norm to learn about Australia and the UK and those sort of places and things like the prairies of America and things like that so it was very much a colonial education I would say in terms of geography and history. We didn't learn much about the African culture at all. I would say it was very colonial.

Jeevan Sanghera

Did you learn languages as well?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Yes, French I remember learning French in secondary school and in the primary we were being taught Guajarati as well and so those were the two [languages] and in terms of speaking Swahili or the [Buganda] language it was only done outside the classroom not as part of education. So, the lady or the gentleman who is helping us out around the House, my dad had a driver for a short time who used to take us to the school, we would talk to them in Swahili, but I didn't even learn any [Buganda] either, my dad did because of his business and at home we just spoke Guajarati and by the time I got to the secondary school in that last year two years before we left it was French as another language which I learnt. And most of the subjects in secondary were done in English so geography was taught in English and we learnt things in English but I think that's part of the colonialism in a sense because English became a major language to communicate in.

Jeevan Sanghera

You mentioned your dad and his business, what was that?

Najma Dawoodbhai

My dad was a trader in watches and spare parts, and he started from scratch when he came at the age of 17. He worked within our community, there was a gentleman who had been there say about 50 years before my dad arrived to Uganda, and they had an established business so he worked in their shop and that was [a watch shop] so he learned the trade from there and then set up his own business and he was quite established and I have things, his Letterheads and stuff like that but the key thing which he did was, I’m first born and the oldest in the family and I was I think the apple of his eye if you say that, so he created Najma watches so he created a trademark and there are a lot of people at the moment who I bump into sometimes from our community or from Kampala and when I mention who I am because I've not met them for 30-40 years or so that I’m, my dad’s name was Abdulla D. Rajbhai, his daughter and they will say “oh are you the Najma with the Najma watches?” and I say “yes I am” so he was quite established by the time Idi Amin came into power.

Jeevan Sanghera

When it came to the household and the different familial roles in the household how did that work?

Najma Dawoodbhai

My mum didn't go out to work, you could call her quite domesticated, although she had help unlike in the western world where most of us do the things ourselves. but her role was around rearing us, and it was me and I've got a sister and a younger brother, so it was three children. We were always fed well and looked after well. In terms of our role as children because I was 14 when we left, 15 almost, I personally didn't feel domesticated at all. In fact, I was considered a rebel so I didn't want to be in the kitchen with [my mum] and although she was trying to get me to be in the kitchen I would much rather go into the shop and help my dad and I've got the photograph to show that I spent much more time in the shop then I was at home. Whereas my sister was different, she was much more willing to be in the kitchen and learn domestic things. But my dad, I can't recall him going into the kitchen and doing things at the time but having said that once we got here [the UK] he was well equipped to help out in the kitchen he was not one of those who didn't change or anything. I think he was happy for my mum to do things and when my mum wasn't around, he may have been alright to even do things as well at the time. My brother was too young he was only 11 when we left, and he was the youngest so as a role and I’m not sure he had a role except that he was the youngest child and was quite pampered in a lot of ways.

Jeevan Sanghera

So we kind of touched on leaving, when exactly did you leave Uganda?

Najma Dawoodbhai

We were given 90 days by Idi Amin to leave in August 1972 and I think we left after 60 days, early October we left, but by that time most of the town was empty the majority of people had left by mid-September.

Jeevan Sanghera

Was there a reason you went after 60 days?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Yes, the reason was that my dad was a Ugandan national and we had Ugandan passports as well and we initially thought this expulsion order doesn't apply to us at all because we are Ugandan, it just applies to people who are holding British passports and my mum was holding a British passport but because she was married to my dad we didn't think it even applied to her. But then, Idi Amin made an announcement to say that the Ugandan Asians will have to have a verification as to whether they're Ugandan passport holders or not, are they true Ugandans or not, and when we went through that process of verification which took ages, days of queuing up and trying to get to a desk who would look at it. And when we got to that stage they said that “No you are not Ugandan” and they took the Ugandan passports away from us so then my dad asked them “What does this mean?” the officer said “Well you are an Asian so you have to leave” so at that point the shock that it does apply to us and we have to leave and then the fun and games started, if you call it fun and games. Our first port of call was the British High Commission to say “We’ve been told we're not Ugandan so technically we are stateless but my mum is British so can we come to Britain?” and the British High Commission said “No as far as our regulations go the head of the household has to be British for the family to come and she's not the head of the household, you [my dad] are the head of the household” so that was a no go. Then we thought that because my mom was born in India, strictly speaking we are of Indian origin, so we went to Indian High Commission and asked but it was exactly the same reply as the British to say that “You [my dad] are the head of the household and you are not born in India, the head of the household has to be Indian for us to take you, we can take your mum” but my mum didn't want to do anything separately we wanted to stick together as a family and go wherever we had to go. So then time passed we were trying to find where to go so we also went to the Australian [embassy] or Canadian [embassy] quite a few embassies and most of them were saying “At the moment we have no instructions that we're taking anybody other than if you are holding a Canadian or an Australian passport” But then somebody said that “Pakistan are taking people, if you are Muslims” so we went and visited the Pakistani embassy and then they said “Yes we’ll take you” and that was almost the end of September, almost the beginning of October. And it was getting very scary because people who had British passports had left by then and the building where we were living there was only us and one other family left [when before there were almost about 15 households]. So we were relieved when Pakistan had said yes to us and so that's why I think it took that long for us to leave and by that time we only had just over two more weeks left before the deadline was finishing.

Jeevan Sanghera

Did you expect it to happen the expulsion or I guess more so your parents because they were older, but when you were younger as well did you ever except it?

Najma Dawoodbhai

No, not at all, because it was home and we never thought that it would ever happen, especially my dad he had established himself and to him he couldn't think of any other place in the world that would be his home. And it was quite shocking, NO we definitely did not ever expect that this would ever happen to us

Jeevan Sanghera

What were your vivid memories at the time of what was going, what sticks with you the most?

Najma Dawoodbhai

What sticks with me the most was how we started saying goodbye to our friends and neighbours and everybody very quickly within two or three weeks. Even in the schools, I still keep on thinking I wonder if I'll ever meet up with anybody any of the friends that we don't know if we’ll ever meet again or not. But they knew because most of them were holding British passport that they would come here [UK] whereas there was no certainty as to where I would go or rather where my family would go, so there was that part, the anxiety of where we will end up or what will happen was there. The second part and this was the biggest part, the Asians left and the military were around the towns and we could see them in big lorries with the guns so the whole environment changed and it was quite scary towards the end because in the evenings if we thought that there would be military going past we would switch our lights off to say that we don't want anybody to know that we are still here. So, I would say scary and anxious.

Jeevan Sanghera

In terms of like the process of leaving how did you leave?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Once Pakistan said yes, in fact from my dad's business point of view, the shop he kept on going for the month during the 90 days decree and he was quite busy. The reason why he was busy was the Asians were told that they could only take £50 in cash and the Asians had quite a lot of cash so they wanted to buy valuable things and watches and that sort of stuff became items of commodity they could take expensive watches and things. So he became busy and he basically within sort of three or four weeks of the announcement his expensive items were all  sold out. And any delivery, because he had already planned his stock, you don't think that this is going to happen, so any new deliveries which came he sold those immediately. So, the shop was busy initially and then he sort of started feeling uncomfortable so he didn’t go to the shop and then we were running around trying to sort out where we will go and the passports and all that so then the shop closed as well. Then at home we started to think that we will have to leave so we started selling things, if people wanted to buy things, and some of the helpers who were around the house they were interested, and we sort of gave things away quite a bit of stuff, the bulky stuff was given away. But we started packing things like practical things which we felt we would use, that we would need it wherever we landed so things like saucepans and bedding stuff so those things. The other thing was trying to get all the suitcases and I don't know why but I thought that we were not allowed to send anything but I do remember having two crates of cargo where we had put in sort of kitchen items and things like sewing machines and it was all practical stuff, but in terms of cash most of it was left in the bank yeah so that's how we did the prep of leaving in a sense.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you were packing is there anything that really stuck with you that you were like I must take this?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Oh yes, like the Najma watches, we only brought two because one was my dad’s which my brother [now has] and one was my mum ladies [watch] because there were none left they were all sold out. So, we only left with two watches which we have brought, we brought some albums as well, we brought some things that we thought we can't leave them behind. My dad had a little scale to weigh things like gold items. The other things were things like penknives which he used to advertise his business. Recently I've been going into the garage which I didn't know about, and I've come across catalogues of my dad's business and his typed letters that he sent to Switzerland, because most of his stoke came from Switzerland, so letters for and this was a time when there was no Internet so I’ve got letters which are copy letters of already posted letters and with the carbon copy sitting in the file. So yes it was a mixture of practical things and certain things of my dad he must have thought that wherever we land he may able to start up again but it's a different thing when you’re in your 40s [instead of[ in your 20s to start up a new life.

Jeevan Sanghera

So when you were leaving did you go by plane or did you go by boat?

Najma Dawoodbhai

We drove to Entebbe airport, that part of the journey was stressful, because we were hearing people saying that, it's about 21 miles from Kampala to Entebbe airport, and the military there    were quite a few checkpoints and the checkpoints were purely used by military to loot people. So, we were scared when we left, there were family friends who were not going to leave because they were determined to stay behind because they thought that they will be able to stay behind although his [the father’s] Ugandan passport was taken away. So, these family friends, my dad had just bought a brand-new car with not much mileage on, so said to this family friend that “You can keep this car”. So, he was going to drop us off in our car to the airport, but we were scared, and we did get stopped but we were lucky we were allowed to pass. But when we got to the airport it was interesting because the two cargo cases I talked about, we saw them sitting there and they were almost broken and I could see my mum and dad saying “You might as well say goodbye we won't get any of those things at all” and in fact when we go to Karachi, because the cargo hadn’t arrived yet, we just started purchasing all the practical items, but in the end it did arrive, it arrived I don't know about 3-4 months later, but it did arrive I think majority of the stuff was still there and I still have quite a few things from that that cargo so we were pleasantly surprised that it did come. Once we got on the plane it was very mixed emotions, we as children were not as worried as my parents were, especially my dad because for him this was his life and it's just the rug has been taken from under his feet.

Jeevan Sanghera

Did your parents ever talk about how they felt, like the moment they got on the plane and having to leave?

Najma Dawoodbhai

They didn’t absolutely not, what they did was they were just quiet I can remember, and they were relieved that hopefully the plane will leave, and we will be gone, but no they were quiet.

Jeevan Sanghera

What was the plane journey like?

Najma Dawoodbhai

I can't remember that much, it was fine, and remember we had just recently flown to different parts of the world in early 1971 but this was a different type of a journey whereas the other ones were like adventure whereas this we could sense the tension and everybody feeling sad. I would say it was very different than the previous flights we'd taken in our lives.

Jeevan Sanghera

What were your expectations going to Karachi or in general of Pakistan?

Najma Dawoodbhai

We had spent about a week or so in early 1970 in Karachi and because we had an aunt who lived there, but it was very different than Kampala very different. I found Kampala and Uganda quite westernised in the sense that we were not worried about wearing skirts or playing with the boys whereas Pakistan was not [like] that. The boys and the girls [had] separate schools and there were not that many mixed schools, and that part was quite different, and Karachi was highly populated compared to how Kampala was in those days. The flip part was that we ate different fruits than what we were eating in Uganda, but it was hot as well, because Uganda wasn't that hot it was very pleasant all year round, it was very different I must say.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you first arrived what was your very first impression of seeing a new city?

Najma Dawoodbhai

I think because we’d been there only a year or so before we knew what to expect but it was different and we were not sure how we would settle and whether we would settle but at the time we thought there was no other place to go this is where we have to settle and the roles, you mentioned before about what were different peoples’ roles, by that time we had to have a role because we didn’t have the help we did in Kampala. So my sister and I had to do domestic duties which we never did in Kampala, so I would go to morning school whereas my sister, I don't know why she was going in a different school, I think my dad was quite determined that I do have an education and do better no matter what, whereas my sister was not so academic even in Kampala so she was in a different school whereas I was in a English miduim school, where everything was taught in English. So, I used to go in the morning school, and she used to go in the afternoon school so she would have done some domestic duties in the morning and then I was left with doing other domestic things in the afternoon and so the roles did become more prominent in that we had to do domestic things. My brother didn’t but he was young anyway, so I remember him playing outside all the time.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you arrived in Pakistan where did you stay when you first got there?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Initially we stayed in a guest house and then my aunty said “You can't stay in the guest house, come to us” so then we went and stayed with them for about a couple of months, 3 months, and then my dad purchased a flat because we knew that we would have to be there for life, at the time, and then that flat, it was a small flat a sort of a two-bedroom flat but sufficient and that was the other thing which was very different because in Kampala we didn’t sleep on the floor whereas in Karachi we had to sleep on the floor because the mattress would be rolled up and put away during the daytime. But it's funny how we adjusted we didn't make a qualm about it we just got on with it, but now it's coming back to me, which I hadn't remembered up till now is that it was very different whereas in Kampala we had bunk beds and proper beds where we were sleeping we never slept on the floor but in Karachi we were sleeping on the floor.

Jeevan Sanghera

What did it feel like when you were, you mentioned education and stuff but how long were you there for?

Najma Dawoodbhai

We got there like I said sort of second week of October 1972, and we were there until the summer of 1974 so just over a year and a half.  But when we arrived, we really thought that this was it, this is where we were going to be and it only changed in late 1973 when the British government changed the equality rules that it doesn't have to be a male head of a family to be British it could be a female. If one of the partners is a British passport holder the family can come and then as soon as those rules changed. What was interesting was my dad had kept in touch with his friends from Uganda in Kampala who had already arrived to the UK and by now they were quite established, established in a sense that they were more settled, and sort of when the rules changed they straight away contacted him to say that “I think you should apply and you should be able to come” and he did apply and we were successful and they said “Yes you can come to the UK” so just a year before we sort of thought this is it and then the rules changed and we thought “Okay we can go to the UK so we might as well go to the UK” and that's what we did.

Jeevan Sanghera

Whilst you were in Pakistan did you feel well settled there?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Well settled is not the right word I would say but we were managing. For me I found my school friends all they were thinking of was marriage, the girls were in late teens and they'll be married [soon], whereas I didn't have any of those intentions, or my dad didn’t have those intentions at all for me, so that was very different. In terms of the community and all that, that was good we fitted in because we had our own Bohra community, but the heat was unbearable during the summer months. So, I wouldn’t say that we were that settled, it was alien to us.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you were in the process of moving what did you expect from Britain in general?

Najma Dawoodbhai

We had heard that the British government had looked after the Asians who had come straight from Uganda so we were not sure whether we would have the same welcome because we were almost two years late arriving so we were not sure, but we sort of thought whatever happens we will have to just work our way through it, we worked our way through in Karachi so we will have to. Personally, I was quite excited, and we thought this will be it because then we will be with the majority [of Ugandan Asians] who have come here [the UK], friends and families. My dad kept on thinking that at least the education part for us would be sorted. He wasn't sure whether he would be able to set up another business because there was no chance of that happening in Karachi for him the opportunities were not there, but here he might have although he never did due to circumstances because my mum got ill and then he got ill but he did think that he might have set up another business here so those were our thoughts of Britain.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you were younger did know much about Britain through education or through friends?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Through education only, not friends. You see things as a child through [rose tinted glasses]. To tell you the truth I'm quite a realistic person and I don't fantasise about things, but I felt that it must be better than Karachi and Pakistan. The key thing once we arrived here was the cleanliness and the second part was, I really missed the butter and jam that we were having in Kampala, the butter in the Indian subcontinent is not the same as what we were getting in Kampala. The other part because we came in the summer months, we came in July, the days were light till 10:00 o'clock, it was just amazing we were playing out till 9/10pm it was good fun.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you arrived did you have a house straight away or did you stay with people?

Najma Dawoodbhai

In fact when we arrived at the airport they took us aside and they said “Do you have somewhere to go?” so my dad explained, and I remember myself standing right next to him, “No we don't have anywhere to go” and the official then said that “Okay that's fine, we will make arrangements for you, somebody will come and see you” so then we were set aside and then a social worker came and collected us from the airport and brought us to a guest house, which was in Ruislip which is just up the road, where they were bringing other refugees, I would say we were refugees to them at the time, and we were given this big room, one huge big room which had about four beds with a double and two [single] beds like a bedsit with a sitting area but you had to share the facilities, the kitchen and the toilet [with other families]. We were pleasantly surprised that they took care of us because we were not expecting anything. From Uganda my dad had sent some money out to the UK because he was planning ahead that if I have to come for education I would need the money so at the airport he did say to them “I don’t have much on me here [money]” but they were not that bothered they just said “Just sit aside somebody will come and help you out” and then this social worker brought us to this guest house and we met other people, not from Uganda, there was a family from Malawi there then there was a family from Aden, because Aden was part of the British colonies and they were having some problems as well. In fact, the family from Aden even after 48 years we have kept in touch. We had a picnic this summer 2022 all of us and how now this third generation is now in place and how things are. So, we were pleasantly surprised, and we were there for about three months and then all the others were housed and then we got temporary accommodation in Northwood and then another flat, a council flat in Northwood hills, so I must give the British government [credit] that they looked after us. At the time you come here you’re not sure what's going to happen but in terms of my dad because he had that little money, he just relied on that money he never took any benefits or anything from the government, so it was good in that sense. We were living on a very tight budget very very tight budget, but it was fine we managed, and we came through it. I think for us three children it was alright, although not as alright for my sister or my brother. We were put in a very white dominated environment and the school they were in; it was not a nice school; racism was quite prominent. So, while the government was okay the locals, were not that happy to have us, but it was okay, and for my parents it was quite traumatic because my mum became ill, she died just after in 1981 of cancer and then for my dad it was equally bad, in fact he contracted cancer before my mum did, but so for them I think what Idi Amin did was very devastating.

Jeevan Sanghera

When you came to England, you moved into your new homes how was it adapting to a new culture and a new environment?

Najma Dawoodbhai

For me it was easier because I was already 16 by the time, I came so I didn’t go into a school. I had to go to a further education college to do my O levels and that college was very multicultural because there were people from overseas doing the O levels and I didn't have that issue of trying to fit in, everybody was new there, but if you talk to my brother and my sister it was a different ball game. They found it tough especially my sister because she went into the last year of GCSEs which in those days it was O levels, and by that time the friendship group and everything were already settled and she had to go in and she found it very tough very very tough so it was not good for her and for my brother he started in a primary school because he was I think 11 by then and he found it tough as well, there was racism there very much so. The teaching was very different, from what they’ve said to me, a good example would be, you know the family from Aden, one of sons he stuttered so in the school, the teachers were so bad, say when they were taking the register when his name would come the teacher would stutter and then the students would laugh. In this day and age that would not ever happen, 50 years on, it can’t happen. How can a teacher pick on somebody like that. So things were different when we came and it was tough, yes very tough.

Jeevan Sanghera

You mentioned that the area was quite white dominated was there any places or spaces in which you could interact with the South Asian community, like religious or cultural spaces?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Yes, I would say because we were not that far from Southall and so, for us to get any Indian food and things we used to go to Southall and purchase them and we used to find that quite alright we would jump on the bus and we would go, at the time we didn't have a car. The funny part was that first year, its laughable now, we came in July, and we used to go to see Hindi movies on Sunday mornings in Harrow, because by that time we got into wanting to be part of the Bollywood network and as we had missed it in Pakistan. So, on last Sunday in October came, we made our way to the cinema at 10:00 o'clock, but when we got there, we were too early because we didn't know anything about these clocks going back, because we’d never ever done that before.  So, I remember once we got there this gentleman, there was another Asian guy said, “The clocks have gone back” and initially it didn't sink into us as to what he's talking about because we'd never come across that the whole country goes an hour back so that was quite funny in a sense. In terms of interacting with other Asians we were doing that, and our own community, the Bohra community, we had our centre in Fulham Palace Road in West London when there was any particular day in a calendar where there was a special event, like the equivalent to Diwali, so Eid or Ramadan we used to go there and that felt really good because you could see people who you hadn't seen for two years because we had been in Pakistan and you could relate to them as well so that was good.

Jeevan Sanghera

That’s a nice way to come back to a community.

Najma Dawoodbhai

Yes, absolutely very much so and they were good as well they would sort of help out to say that “Have you done this or have you done that?” and I remember them saying to my dad that “Although you were driving in Kampala you must learn to drive here” because driving will be quite essential and things like that so advice was there as well. Because they were almost a year and a half [ahead of] us so that's why it was quite good to have that support.

Jeevan Sanghera

You’ve touched on this a bit but when you arrived here, you’d be in Uganda and then Pakistan and then England what did you see as the biggest similarities and differences that of hit you the most?

Najma Dawoodbhai

The biggest similarity was our environment and the food we ate was very similar to Uganda here and the biggest difference between Pakistan and here was, you as a female and your role and your whole ethos of how you look forward to things, dress code, because once you reached puberty in Pakistan you had to make sure that your legs are covered, you may not be wearing a hijab, but you can't wear a skirt or things like that. Whereas here it was like in Uganda nobody cared what you wore so those were the major differences. And also I felt that it was much more an organised country in a sense that you had a process of what to do when you wanted to do it, like the schooling there was a set way of doing things like how my brother and sister were taken to the schools whereas in Karachi it was up to us to sort those things out, find the school look for the right school, nobody was there to help out so those were the big differences.

Jeevan Sanghera

You’ve touched on education quite a lot through our conversation. When you got here was education the same or had it changed, and what were your expectations from your education by the time you got here?

Najma Dawoodbhai

It was different, I found it tough, because having [done] some [parts] in Uganda then some [parts] in Karachi by the time I got here I had to do the O levels and I can't say that I performed that well. I mean I was naturally good at maths and maths doesn't change no matter where you are and so I was fine with that. Although my English I thought was okay, speaking wise, but the English course to get the O level was quite tough I found, and the other subjects were similar, but I must say I didn't do geography or history I just did science and maths and English you see so I don't know what geography in English would have been like here. And to me that’s where I think [it would be different] because history in Pakistan was totally different because we were learning about the Indian subcontinent and how the Indian subcontinent got independence which was very different from Uganda. So, it was totally new to learn for me in Pakistan whereas here being 16 I had to prioritise [subjects] it wasn’t like being in a school and you had to learn certain subjects, so I just did the science subjects and that was it my five GCSES. In the end the English bit I had to get a separate Cambridge certificate because the O level I was not just not good enough.

Jeevan Sanghera

In terms of your expectations from your life as you moved through these phases how do you think that changed?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Being here has giving me independence, I have had a good career, I have freedom of speech, I can speak my mind. what I'm thinking without focusing on whether it's the right thing to do or not. So that part has changed whereas I think it might have been different if I was in Uganda and it would have been totally different in Pakistan. So my life has been totally different I would say I don't know what it would have been like in Uganda because as far as education is concerned, okay I would have got educated because my dad was determined to get me educated, but whether I would have had a successful career afterwards I don't know and whether my life thinking would have been different I don't know. When I went back in 2007 to Uganda, I know I was a different person than when I’d left.

Jeevan Sanghera

Was that the first time you’d been back?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Yes, I went back because I really wanted to go back and see what it was it like and it was really exciting. But what was the key difference was how I treated the indigenous African population because when we left, we were okay have them as our helpers in the house “but would we have invited them for lunch to sit down with us? No” whereas the guide we were travelling around with when I went in 2007 when we stopped for lunch, we asked him to join us because that's the normal thing to do. So, I’m a different person then when I left Uganda.

Jeevan Sanghera

With that kind of reflection, does the sense of time that's passed and your life now, has that changed how you think about the past and think about what life in Uganda was like and especially with relations between South Asian people and the indigenous people?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Very much so, absolutely. I think reflecting back we did not treat the indigenous population very fairly I totally agree with what Idi Amin was saying then [regarding Asian-indigenous relations]. It comes from the colonialism because the British had left that part where they were the superior, we the Asians were in the middle, and the Africans were right at the bottom. They ruled us and we ruled the Africans and until we came here [the UK], and we started thinking for ourselves, in a way, we realised that what we were doing there was wrong. So yes I absolutely agree that retrospectively things should have been different.

Jeevan Sanghera

In terms of when you came here and you had to integrate, you went to quite a multicultural further education college, but on a broader kind of scale what was it like for you specifically with your interactions with English people?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Once I finished my A levels and then I did a year out and worked for a year, most of the people wear whites there, I didn't have any problems there at all, but that doesn't mean that there were some that were not accepting the ethnic minorities. But you sort of go towards, to be friendly well I do, with people who are going to accept you. There's no point in messing around, wasting your time with people who don’t’ like you and I think that’s just your internal instinct. And by that time we were in this council flat, which was predominantly white, and I remember when we moved in because there was a lady downstairs who had lived in North Africa so she was quite accepting of us because she had travelled and she said that “Do you know that the lady opposite she had set up a petition to stop you guys coming when she heard that there was an Asian family moving in” so I said “We didn’t know” because it must have been before we got there but obviously the petition was not successful because we still moved in but on the surface that lady opposite would be polite to us and didn't say anything to our face but the underlying racism was there and we wouldn't have known about it. So there’s two levels of racism at that time in the 70s and the early 80s, one was very blatant where you would hear when you're walking down the street “paki, paki” and at the time we didn't even realise what paki meant because I thought “How do they know that we have come from Pakistan?” I was baffled by that and then there’s the other type which is quite underhanded or without you even realising that this person is racist so that was going on. But then when I got to university, I sort of found that that generation of the young people were not like that at all and I interacted with them without any problems and I shared a house with one Welsh, one English, and one Iranian person and we were fine, we are still friends. And then when I did my final year at Leicester most of my friends were English friends. So it didn't really make any difference to me but then when I started my first job at the civil service the manager I worked with she was just blatantly racist, there was no ifs or buts about it but then there was support from others around who's sort of said to me that “You don't have to put up with it” because by that time it was 1983/84 so things were changing but you could see the frustration on the people who are racist because they can’t do what they want to do then.

Jeevan Sanghera

Had you ever faced discrimination prior to moving here or that you kind of knew of?

Najma Dawoodbhai

No, you don’t know about that until you leave here yes absolutely, I agree. The funny part is we were obviously discriminating against the indigenous population in Uganda ourselves, but we didn't know that we were doing that. It’s the reverse in a way but we didn't know about it that we were doing it, because why would we not allow the person who is helping us out in our house to go and use our bathroom? He would have a separate bathroom to go and use and to me it's discrimination, isn't it? Just because he is black and he's not part of our family but if the guests came to our [house] and most of the guests would be Asians they are okay to use our bathroom, yet not the servant who is working for us.

Jeevan Sanghera

Do you think there was a reason for that?

Najma Dawoodbhai

Well, I think it's just we thought that they were not equal to us. But now looking back I would be horrified to do that sort of thing to anybody but I think that's because we have faced racism ourselves.

Jeevan Sanghera

How did you feel when you first encountered it and understood what were the intentions behind it in terms of racism?

Najma Dawoodbhai

I think people are racist because, one they don't understand you, and the second part is they are threatened that you're invading their life or their environment and that's the only reason why they [are racist] that’s how I think of it. Its [a lack of] education as well they’re not educated, but that's not true because when I joined the civil service, this lady that I'm talking about she didn't sound that she was not educated, she just didn't like anybody other than English people or white people. And you can’t change that, and you get that even now 50 years on. But now the reason is because they feel they are invaded by “foreign species”

Jeevan Sanghera

As a last couple questions did you feel that moving away changed you in terms of how you identify, so whether you identified as Ugandan or Pakistani or English. How do you think that kind of evolved and how would you think of yourself now?

Najma Dawoodbhai

When you first come here you forget about the identity you don't even think about the identity at all. But now I always say that I'm East African Asian and the reason why I say East African is because my dad was from Zanzibar and I'm Asian so that's why rather than Ugandan Asian and it works, and when you have all those forms when you're filling in ethnicity I always tick other and then write down East African because that's what I identify as and we are different ,we East African Asians are different than Indian subcontinent Asians, there's a distinction in our thinking there's a distinction in the whole of a cultural differences as well.

Jeevan Sanghera

If you could think of a few examples?

Najma Dawoodbhai

A few examples for us is that the East Africans don't worry about what caste or what different religions we come from because we used to live together without any of those issues. We didn’t have that thinking that “Oh this person is Muslim, I'm a Hindu” it didn't make any difference because we were close a knit community whereas somebody coming from the Indian subcontinent straight away will say first of all “Are you Muslim, or Sikh or Hindu?” to them that religion plays a very big part, that's the first part. The other part is that although things may be changing now because the Indian subcontinent, the public is travelling around [more] and meeting [people from] different walks of life, whereas we have been migrants from day one so we think everybody is equal because we are migrants ourselves generation wise.

Jeevan Sanghera

As a final question is there anything you else wanted to share whether its stories of sorts or anything?

Najma Dawoodbhai

No, I think I covered almost everything and I’ve covered quite a lot of things which I hadn't covered before with other people with whom I've interviewed so it's quite interesting, thank you.