Max Russel

Bhavesh thank you so much for joining me today. The first thing I wanted to ask you is what made you motivated/interested to join this project in the first place?

Bhavesh Kotecha

Well it's the story, well it’s my family’s story too, and it’s been in the background since I've been born, for a long time, and the 50^th anniversary was timely actually because it created more discussions with my family, specifically my dad, about it and also because I’d unpicked, because I’ve retrained as a therapist, I unpicked the impact it had on me during that time as well. So it was very timely for me to be involved in something like this and I was really drawn to it. So it was to deepen the conversations with my family and also to give me more [of an] understanding about what happened and the impact it had on me as well.

Max Russel

As you said you retrained as a therapist, so I think you have some skills, and of course training [regarding] talking to people, but you also came to a training day focused on oral history. How was that, attending that session, and also meeting some other people from the same background that also had the same passion and interest for being part of this project?

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yeah it was awesome actually, to have a room full of people that were aware of what had happened and the intricacies behind that, but [who] also brought a slightly different slant to things. It was very easy to connect to people, we almost like immediately were able to connect over the topic because we all had an understanding of it and shared a history, so usually you get strangers in a room and there's a bit of time to understand who they are, a bit of uncomfortableness, but there really wasn't with this group because we were straight in there, we were really invested in the subject and also to be able to take the oral histories down in the best way possible. So I left really feeling quite energised and inspired after that day.

Max Russel

Fantastic to hear. And then of course you did an interview for the project with Mubina, am I right in saying that you did that in person and went to her house?

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yeah I went to her house, I met some of her family, and again [as I said before] we were straight in, it's almost like you don't have to really go to the beginning and explain “Oh do you know what happened?” it's there, straight in, bang, there's an understanding.

Max Russel

How was that experience of doing that interview, especially in terms of the similarities and differences of things that came up, that maybe you were familiar with from your own family history, as you mentioned there already having that understanding, but also maybe some differences that you weren't expecting, or just new perspectives on the topic?

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yeah actually yes. I didn’t know what Mubina looked like and initially I was surprised because she looked more black than Indian, South Asian, which is what I was I was expecting. So straight away there was this like “Oh this is going to be really interesting because I'm going to get a different insight into somebody that's a slightly different race” because my experiences have been with South Asian Ugandans and Mubina is half South Asian and half African. So there was that initial “Wow okay not what I expected”, but then as soon I entered her house it was really interesting because she offered me chai, masala chai, she had Indian snacks that I was familiar with and it was just such a rich cultural experience, and then straight into it you know, and the similarities we obviously knew what happened. What she brought was a different nuance, different perspective, which I hadn’t encountered because not only is she of mixed race she also was adopted as well, by a South Asian family, so she brought the two perspectives there which I hadn't really thought about, and what it must [have] been like for those who actually represented two different cultures, two different backgrounds, and the racism that she suffered as a result of that, not only in Uganda but also in the UK as well. And that was quite eye opening actually because she not only got racism from people who were white, but also [from] people who were Indian, fully Indian, and that made for some really deep discussion and it made me reflect quite a lot afterwards actually, and also put me slightly out of my comfort zone, because I know what happened to my family and lots of people like me and my parents, but I didn't appreciate it from somebody that was black and the racism they would have felt and suffered from Indian people as well as others. It was an interesting interview and she was really open as well and really wanted to talk and really wanted to speak about it, and she said lots of things that she hasn't really spoken to other people about, so I think for her it was also quite an emotive experience and I felt like we really connected as a result and spent an hour and a half together and it was like an old friend, and we hugged, and we said our goodbyes, and we’ve had a few messages afterwards as well.

Max Russel

That's amazing. I think from listening to the interview there's so many unique insights that she provides, and as you said, is very open about discussing difficulties and also as you said the difficulty of addressing the racism of the South Asian community towards people that are not of their group, of her having to place herself in a world where she is not accepted by either group, I think that's her own words, she says “I am Mubina that’s who I am” so I think that was really really interesting. As you said it also made you reflect a lot, so has that triggered now for you a desire to maybe even explore more aspects of this history, or maybe ask questions of relatives and friends that you haven't before?

Bhavesh Kotecha

Yeah it’s deepened it even more for me. I'm really interested in it from the psychological angle and the trauma angle, given my profession, and it's made me think more about the impact that it's had on people, I mean this is what 1972, but 50 years later the impact it's still having on people, on how they live their lives and their worldview, and certainly with Mubina she's had to adapt herself in so many different spheres of her life, and it's still happening for her. So it has actually then made me ask even deeper questions to my own family, but also about how they viewed the local population there in Uganda. My dad was very integrated and he had lots of lots of black friends, and he really embraced that, but I know of others who found integrating very difficult and definitely there's an inherent racism there as well which they subconsciously brought with them here as well, and it just makes it very complicated, and there's a lot of layers and nuances around race as well as the trauma aspect, and how complicated it really is. I've certainly found that myself when people have asked me where I'm from and I say “Well actually I was born here but my parents were born in Africa, but my grandparents were born in India” and that complication around that, and they will go “Well your parents were born in Africa but you’re not black?” and it just gets more complicated, and for my children they have to go to their great grandparents for their Indian heritage, and their grandparents for their Uganda heritage, and then the British heritage comes from us and they’re born here, so it's even more complicated. So race and belonging it’s just not a black and white thing anymore, it’s really complicated, there’s a lot of layers and that’s what Mubina brought, all these different layers, and it just reminded me how complicated it can be for people.

Max Russel

Yeah I completely agree, I think that’s something that's come out of this project, is belonging, identity, all of that, it's already so complex and then you add in other factors of, being adopted or having mixed heritage, as you said it's so difficult to define, and also to explain to someone simply, as you said you go “Well my parents are from here, my grandparents from here but actually then they went there, they were forced out by this…”. To wrap up I wanted to ask you, what do you see as the way forward for this history and for making sure that this is understood and acknowledged by more people?

Bhavesh Kotecha

That’s a really good question. I almost feel like it's not in mainstream media yet, there's been snippets, and for me personally the historical context is important, and the facts, and what happened, but for me it's about the legacy of that and what that means for people like my parents who are still here, but also my generation and the impacts of that. So for me I would like to see more in the mainstream media, more focus around that story, because also this story is not just about us and about what happened to East African Asians, this kind of thing happens around the world in so many different ways. My parents generation that came here they’ve been successful in the UK, generally afterwards, so people can recover from the trauma, people can take stock of their lives and build a new life very quickly within one generation in another country, it can happen. So I would like to see it as a kind of a story of hope and overcoming adversity, and there's a lot of the UK-bashing but the other side is that people can come here and rebuild their lives, it is possible, this generation has done it, and that's only because the circumstances in this country do allow that. Yeah there's nuances and it's hard, and there’s racism, and there's definitely boundaries in place, but it is possible because my family have done it and lots of other families have done it, it is a safe haven, and that message sometimes doesn't come through, and being British born I am actually a very proud Brit, I recognise my other heritage, but we're here and actually we've been able to thrive, so it's not all bad. So that's like the second part of the message for me.

Max Russel

I think that's a very interesting point. Thank you so much Bhavesh. I wanted to ask are there any other final thoughts or reflections about being involved in the project, but also the wider context, that you'd like to say, but I feel like if you've covered everything quite well there.

Bhavesh Kotecha

No just to say thank you, it was a real honour and privilege to be involved. I wanted to do more interviews afterwards but never really got a chance. I wanted my dad to be involved but then he had to have surgery so we couldn't do it. But also I think me and Mubina will stay in touch forever I think, and I'm really pleased that I got somebody, which is purely by chance, who lived very close to me, who actually taught me something, because otherwise if I had a family that had a similar experience to me I would just be in my comfort zone. And I just hope this goes from strength to strength, and if there's any other areas you want me to be involved in, particular the psychological side, I would love to. It's been great, brilliant, and very timely as well.

Max Russel

Thank you so much for being involved, without individuals like yourself this project wouldn’t work so thank you, thank you to you as well.