Max Russel

Anil thank you so much for speaking to me today. So why don't we start with your life in Uganda. So if you could tell me a bit about where you were born, maybe also your parents, your grandparents their back story.

Anil Nagar

So I’ll start with my grandparents they moved to Uganda/East Africa in the early part of the (20^th) century from Mumbai. So my heritage actually is Gujarat, Porbandar originated from [there] and then my grandparents moved to Mumbai and then they migrated from Mumbai to Jinja, Uganda and it was all do to with the empire. They were traders, shoemakers that’s what our trade is, and they obviously saw an opportunity to move into Uganda, to help the local people with the shoes, and that’s how it started.

Max Russel

That was your grandparents?

Anil Nagar

That was my grandparents. My father was born in Porbandar as well, but my mother was born in Africa, same on mother’s side, they did the same thing, they knew each other my grandparents and my mothers parents, it’s quite strange because they were a closeknit community and obviously by word of mouth they moved into Africa and my father he moved to Uganda when he was about 10 years old and he hasn’t been back to India since. When they were exiled from Uganda my father was in Belgium, and my mother, myself and my brother, there were only four of us in the family, we came to this country and we lived with my uncle when we first came to this county.

Max Russel

We’ll get onto the expulsion later. So you said shoemakers what made them come to Uganda in particular was it that it was seen as a place of opportunity?

Anil Nagar

That’s it, an opportunity to expand. My grandparents they already had shops in Mumbai and they moved to Uganda to see if they could expand. I think that the journey from Mumbai to Uganda was about a month and a half in a ship, so that was quite a journey for them I imagine, because I don’t think there were any planes at that time.

Max Russel

And in terms of Uganda did they know people there, were people suggesting that they came there, or did they just go blind?

Anil Nagar

I think it was more blind because I think a lot of Asians you’ll went into Uganda to build the railways, and obviously you needed the commercial side as well, so they saw the opportunity there and that's how they started.

Max Russel

And yourself where did you come into picture, what year were you born?

Anil Nagar

My parents got married in 1960, I was born in 1964.

Max Russel

In Jinja?

Anil Nagar

Jinja yeah that’s where my birth is, and same with my brother, and we had a shoe shop next to temple, and I was eight when I came to this country at the time I was eight years old when we were expelled. 1972 October 13^th I think.

Max Russel

And what were those eight years like in Uganda growing up, do you remember much about it?

Anil Nagar

Vaguely, happy years I would say, Uganda is a nice country it’s on the equator but I can’t remember much in terms of what we did there, I cant remember because at eight years the memory it’s not quite [there].

Max Russel

And is that the same as your brother or does he remember more?

Anil Nagar

He was one so he was younger, I’m the older, so he was one when he came to this country.

Max Russel

So you don’t remember that much about life there but do you remember the expulsion process, do you remember that happening and how that was for your family?

Anil Nagar

No. I remember there was something going on because a lot of people were kind of panicking and anxiety not knowing what was going to happen. I think you must have heard of this, the Madhvani family the eldest son was put into prison, I think that’s where the kind of anxiety [came from] and my parents were hoping that you know something would come out of it and they wouldn’t have to leave. So you were saying the anxiety and stress [as a consequence of the expulsion] and yeah I think that’s what my parents might have suffered as well, but obviously they didn’t talk about it.

Max Russel

So when you have heard those little bits [about the expulsion] how have you found out about what your family were going through, is that from other family members that sort of recounted what happened, or you have asked your parents about [it]?

Anil Nagar

My fathers’ brothers they left [East Africa] quite early because at the time what happened was the British government was giving access visas and passes for people to go over, and that’s when they took the opportunity to move, they came to this country in 1962/64, but my father and my mother decided to stay [in Uganda] and hope for the best, and I think when Idi Amin told us to leave the country my parents were hoping that things would change. So they stayed until the very end almost, my father, I think two days before the expiry date, he caught the last plane out of the country going anywhere, so he ended up in Belgium.

Max Russel

So let’s go onto that, what kind of passports or citizenship were your family holding?

Anil Nagar

My mother had a British passport but my father was, I believe an Indian passport holder from the changeover, so that was a bit difficult.

Max Russel

So what did that mean in terms of the process of where you were going?

Anil Nagar

Obviously we were okay to come to this country because my uncle was living in Leicester. So me, my mother [and brother], a week before [my father], we travelled from Uganda to Britain and then we stayed in a camp, and I can’t remember which camp it was, I think it was somewhere in Kent.

Max Russel

So you arrived there but your dad went somewhere else?

Anil Nagar

Yeah my father he went into Belgium.

Max Russel

[In response to question about camp in Kent] RAF West Malling that’s in Kent.

Anil Nagar

Oh right so we must have stayed there then and my uncle from Leicester came to pick us up the next day, so that was good, so we didn’t stay in the camp that long. When we were travelling we travelled with our neighbours. In Uganda we were living together in the same vicinity so the neighbours were there and we almost came to this country together, so that was a bit of support for them, for my mother anyway. From the camp our uncle came to pick us up and then we stayed with my uncle for a year I think it was.

Max Russel

In Leicester?

Anil Nagar

In Leicester, and then because at the time there was a National Front protest, Enoch Powell and his movement, “Don’t go to Leicester!”

Max Russel

Do you remember experiencing that firsthand?

Anil Nagar

I [did] see one protest, the National Front protests in Leicester, obviously I hadn’t a clue what was going on.

Max Russel

Did you did you ask your parents or your uncle about what it was?

Anil Nagar

No because I think that’s where the trauma starts, because obviously you're starting a new life aren’t you and as [Fiyaz Mughal] says [it was] traumatic for him and he was only one and I was eight, so perhaps I had bit more of a chance at adjusting.

Max Russel

So what was that like then arriving as an 8 year old and also being with your family, what did you kind of think what was going to happen in life? It’s a massive change to go from living in Uganda in Jinja, on the equator, to now living in Leicester with your uncle for six months to a year, do you remember what you were thinking at the time?

Anil Nagar

No, no. Because it’s a huge change isn’t it, a different country, environment, cold, I remember it was freezing when we came here in the winter time. Schooling was an issue, making new friends.

Max Russel

So what was that like did you go to school in Leicester?

Anil Nagar

Yeah for a couple of months I went into ,a nearby school and then my uncle he decided move from the Melton Road area in Leicester, that’s where we used to live, to the Evington part of Leicester which is on the outskirts [nearer] his [place of work], but I can’t remember much actually to be honest.

Max Russel

Do you remember what the school was like in terms of demographics?

Anil Nagar

Most of them were English, no one from the [Indian] subcontinent.

Max Russel

How was that as a kid?

Anil Nagar

A bit difficult, learning was an issue as well, you had to pick up English quite fast and I did have an issue with the English language.

Max Russel

Had you learn that all in Uganda at school or?

Anil Nagar

No.

Max Russel

What were the languages you spoke at home?

Anil Nagar

Oh sorry in Uganda we were taught in English, but my original language is Gujarati, but my parents used to speak Swahili as well, so we know a few words in Swahili as well.

Max Russel

Even though you're in Leicester did the first school had some other Uganda Asians? Because obviously as we know quite a lot of Uganda Asians relocated to Leicester originally.

Anil Nagar

I can’t remember.

Max Russel

But then I guess when your uncle moved to this more suburban area that was predominantly white?

Anil Nagar

It was white in Evington.

Max Russel

And what were your parents doing at that time, how old were they in 1972?

Anil Nagar

My mother must have been 30/35ish and initially what was happening, I remember going to the surgery of the local councillor, and he was campaigning to have the law changed so that women who were in this country could bring their husbands.

Max Russel

Right the head of household had to be a male for everyone else to be able to come to the country on that passport.

Anil Nagar

Yeah so I remember going to his surgeries and that's when he was taking up our case for our father to come from Belgium to us. I think it was about six months to a year, he was with us in 1973 or 74 if I’m not mistaken.

Max Russel

Have you talked to your dad about how he ended up in Belgium, do you know that process of why Belgium?

Anil Nagar

No I haven’t spoken about that actually, he didn’t talk much about it all.

Max Russel

So you said it was until 1973. What was it like not having your dad there, were you and your mum and your sibling in contact with him, or did you know where he was, or what he was doing?

Anil Nagar

No because of course communication, we didn’t have mobiles. When he went to Belgium he did ring us actually once.

Max Russel

So you knew he had got out of the country?

Anil Nagar

Yeah we knew his whereabouts but not exactly what he was doing. I believe from my understanding the plane was going from Uganda to Belgium so there was quite a large [amount], 200/300 people who ended up in Belgium.

Max Russel

Do you know if he was in a resettlement camp there?

Anil Nagar

Yeah similar to the camp we were in, camp environment.

Max Russel

How was that for you, did you see that effect in your mum, she was away from her partner for nearly a year, did you notice a change [in her]?

Anil Nagar

Really my uncle supported [us], so there was a lot of support there, both my uncles, so it got to a situation where she would have overcome her anxiety.

Max Russel

Do you think that really helped, having extended family that were already settled in Britain?

Anil Nagar

Yeah they were already settled here and they were very supportive in terms of how they looked after us.

Max Russel

Did they have any children similar to your age?

Anil Nagar

No they were just married they didn’t have any children, obviously later on life, 1976/77, they started their families.

Max Russel

As a kid after arriving were you making friends, did you hang out with your sibling, do you remember what you were doing a sort of day-to-day basis in those first few years?

Anil Nagar

Going back to my uncle when he moved [into] the suburbs of Leicester my father came to this country and we moved away from my uncle and into the first rented house, that’s how we started. So I remember the first house we rented was opposite the park, Spinney Hill park in Leicester, so that was interesting. And then I remember travelling from our rented home to the school Mayflower I used to go to, quite a few miles away, walking there and back here, so that was a bit of a [journey].

Max Russel

Why did you go to school so far away?

Anil Nagar

That was the only available school at the time and also made my life a little bit easier because I used to drop my brother off to my uncle's house for the day and then pick him up and come back home.

Max Russel

What age is this now?

Anil Nagar

Nine.

Max Russel

So it’s still primary school, and this is the third school you’ve been in in the UK?

Anil Nagar

When we first came here I went to the school in the Belgrave area and then when we moved to the outskirts of Leicester, I went to Mayflower.

Max Russel

So even though you'd moved from your uncle place you went to the same school?

Anil Nagar

It was a different school.

Max Russel

Do you remember that school then, what was that like, what were the demographics like?

Anil Nagar

Enjoyable, that’s when we started to make friends and settled down.

Max Russel

Did you feel that most of the kids accepted you or was there any form of racism?

Anil Nagar

No, to be honest in my life I haven’t experienced racism.

Max Russel

Is there any reason you think that is?

Anil Nagar

I don't know. I haven’t come across face to face racism really, I can’t remember. I can’t say that there are any incidents of racism, there might have been in the background, but I haven’t experienced anything like that at all.

After the interview Anil recalled that there were incidents of non-acceptance ‘When we moved into a predominantly white council estate we had our window broken a number of times’

Max Russel

And what about your family, do you know if they had any difficulties? You said you moved into a rented property, how was that? Did your dad get a job as soon as he arrived?

Anil Nagar

Yeah another relative helped my father to get a job, so it was word of mouth, so he went into plastic moulding, engineering kind of things, and same with my mother she found a job in a similar environment as well.

Max Russel

Did they speak any English when they arrived?

Anil Nagar

My mother could but my father couldn’t, so there was a language barrier.

Max Russel

And then you started going to school. Was the thinking in your family, I know you said that originally your parents tried to stay in Uganda as long as possible because they were hoping something would change, that they wouldn’t have to leave, was there still the thinking that we might be able to go back, or did your parents start to realise that Britain is where they're going to be permanently?

Anil Nagar

Yeah.

Max Russel

Do you remember when that happened, or those discussions?

Anil Nagar

No but I think in their mind they must have thought that it’s not going to be possible for us to go back, but as I said my parents never talked about it.

Max Russel

Did you ever try and bring it up with them and they shut it down, or you've never sort of wanted to talk about it with them?

Anil Nagar

No there was never really an opportunity for us to sit down and discuss what happened.

Max Russel

Why do you think that is?

Anil Nagar

I don’t know, I think possibly that they wanted to put everything under the carpet and move on with their lives.

Max Russel

Do you think they were able to move on with their lives?

Anil Nagar

Yeah I think so, because I know it’s really difficult to start off from scratch, but they managed to move on from that, the situation they were more occupied with was trying to get a base established for our family. And then going back that was our first rented accommodation and then I think a year after that we moved to another property, rented again similar area but better location, and then in 1976 we moved into a council house in the outskirts of Leicester again, and then that’s at the same time when I went into senior school, Judgemeadow.

Max Russel

What was that like, had you made friends in primary school that you then went to this new school with?

Anil Nagar

Yeah the primary school friends moved with us, the friendship thing was quite supportive because we knew each other and we were in a similar school again, so there was no issue about starting all over again.

Max Russel

So did you start to feel quite settled in that environment?

Anil Nagar

Yeah there were no chances of questioning why we were here, because we were just getting on with our lives.

Max Russel

So it seems like you adapted to life in Leicester relatively quickly as a kid, so there wasn't any longing for Uganda in your mind, or did you miss anything?

Anil Nagar

No not really, no.

Max Russel

Was it exciting to be in a new country at all when you arrived?

Anil Nagar

As a child yeah, a new life, but I remember in Uganda when my uncle first came to this country I was longing to join him, the thought of going to another country was there. So not going back is not something that you ever thought about, I’ve not been to Uganda since.

Max Russel

In terms of the friends you were making were they predominantly white kids, or was it a mix of people?

Anil Nagar

No it was Indians, so from a similar background.

Max Russel

But not East African [Asians]?

Anil Nagar

Yes East African, one of my friends was East African, so we had a connection there, and the other two friends were from India.

Max Russel

Did you feel that you did gravitate towards those people because you had a similar background, and them the same with you probably?

Anil Nagar

That’s right.

Max Russel

Did you notice, from hearing other people's stories there do seem to be some sort of cultural differences between East African Asians and South Asians from the Indian subcontinent, did you notice anything like that or was it very much you felt one of the same?

Anil Nagar

No I think you’ll find that there is a cultural thing in the subcontinent and the Asians in East Africa have developed their own cultural thing, so there is a vast difference.

Max Russel

Could you tell me some examples that spring to mind, or is it attitudes towards certain things, or cultural norms?

Anil Nagar

Cultural norms I’d say, because the East African Asians, for example religious practises there are certain things that they would do which the Indian subcontinent people would not do.

Max Russel

Do you have an example of that?

Anil Nagar

The subcontinent people there are very orthodox in their thinking, very straight and narrow, whereas if you leave the Indian subcontinent and you move around to the other countries you try fix in with other cultures. For example in the subcontinent they wouldn’t celebrate Easter or Christmas whereas we would. We do celebrate and we have Christmas trees, and Easter we do eggs.

Max Russel

So it's almost sort of a more accommodating attitude towards other religions and traditions?

Anil Nagar

Yeah that’s right, you know what the say ‘Do as the romans do when you’re in Rome’, so you’ve got to adapt and take on the culture of the host country.

Max Russel

Let's go on that tangent, was religion a big thing in your family, was it important when you were growing up?

Anil Nagar

Yes.

Max Russel

Hindu?

Anil Nagar

Hindu, yes very much so, we’ve been brought up strictly in our religion.

Max Russel

How was that arriving here, were you able to go to Temple?

Anil Nagar

There wasn’t a temple at the time.

Max Russel

So how did your family adjust to that?

Anil Nagar

I mean in Hinduism wherever you go you can adapt it so you can set up a shrine at home, you don’t need to go Temple, there’s no need for us to do that, it’s very adaptable very adjustable. But then after that, 6/8 months after we first came to this country there was a Temple, they set up a Temple in Leicester, so we used to go there every couple of months.

Max Russel

In terms of bringing stuff, I know you didn’t remember much about the expulsion, but was your mum able to bring any belongings any valuables. Nothing, really?

Anil Nagar

As I said we were the very last people to leave so what happened was they just took a few clothes in a bag and left everything behind, just emptyhanded.

Max Russel

It does seem like your uncle here really [helped], you said you were in the camp for literally what, a day?

Anil Nagar

Yeah 24 hours. So yeah that was very lucky actually because I think most people [there was] quite a long waiting list at the camps.

Max Russel

And when your uncle then took you to live with him, did they have space for you or were you sharing a room for awhile, how was that living situation?

Anil Nagar

They lived in a terraced house actually, so there wasn't much space but we managed. There was four of them and three of us, so quite cramped.

Max Russel

And in terms of other cultural traditions, not exclusively religion, things like food and music how was that?

Anil Nagar

Very different. Food, I think we only survived on potatoes and whatever was available in this country at the time, I think cauliflower and potatoes I remember. Chapati flour I remember they used to buy. In Leicester I think we were lucky because there were a few shops from previous people who must have established themselves about 6/7 years earlier, they must have set up a shop in Leicester, so in terms of food we were able to access chapati flour, a few Indian vegetables, but not that many.

Max Russel

And what about at school, what were you eating, were you able to eat [vegetarian]?

Anil Nagar

So I started to off trying to just stick to a vegetable diet, and we did transfer ourselves into eating meat as well, chicken, obviously beef was out of the question, for a few years, and I then reverted back to vegetarianism when I started the secondary school.

Max Russel

And was accommodating eating meat something that your parents just said you should do, or that was a personal decision?

Anil Nagar

I think other people in the family said for your protein reasons, but then as I grew older I understood I said “Oh I can’t be having this” so I just went back into vegetarianism and ever since I’ve been a vegetarian since then. Obviously there is a religious aspect as well.

Max Russel

So you started secondary school, and how many of other siblings do you have?

Anil Nagar

Just my younger brother

Max Russel

How much younger was he?

Anil Nagar

He was born in 1969 so three years old when he came to this country.

Max Russel

What about for him, I assumed he hadn’t learnt any English in Uganda, so how was that for him arriving?

Anil Nagar

I don’t think he can remember much at the age, but as I said I used to drop him off at my uncle and grandmother and they used to look after him when my parents were at work.

Max Russel

What about school, did you have a favourite subject or stuff that you were particularly interested in? Also how was it academically, did you find it easy to adapt, you said there was the difficulty of English.

Anil Nagar

No hard, because I always found English to be a very hard language to learn, and it was really difficult actually at school, so I always at the bottom of the class.

Max Russel

What about other subjects?

Anil Nagar

My favourites used to be History and Geography.

Max Russel

And in terms of grades did you progress?

Anil Nagar

No.

Max Russel

It was pretty tough?

Anil Nagar

It was very tough actually, even in the junior school English was quite challenging when the teachers used to say “Here you go, write an essay” and I wasn’t able to do that actually, so that was very difficult in terms of learning.

Max Russel

So what did that mean then in terms of when you finished secondary school?

Anil Nagar

So I did manage to get little better grades and I did go to college to do Business Studies and after that I went to Melton Mowbray which, travelling from Leicester to Melton Mowbray is quite a distance. The college there is where I did my Business Studies. I did go to work, only part-time as a wages clerk in Loughborough, I used to travel each day and then I, we decided to do business in Bristol, that’s how we came to Bristol, we used to have a Newsagents shop in Fishponds.

Max Russel

So that was your parents idea?

Anil Nagar

Partly so. We all moved, my father used to work in Leicester for about 2/3 years, and then we opened a business in Bristol and ever since, 20 years we ran that Newsagent, it was a tiny shop.

Max Russel

What made them choose Bristol, or you said it was more of a family decision?

Anil Nagar

Yeah again my parents have always looked at support, so there was an uncle who had a shop here, so that's how we came to stay here. So there was always a link of support, that's how we survived.

Max Russel

And I guess that entrepreneurial business background was your family's background, so did your dad feel a lot more comfortable doing that, than working in that plastic factory?

Anil Nagar

Yeah having your own business, but then again was that the right decision to make, because I think it’s better to be working for somebody and have a regular income, because straight after we started the [newsagent] we hit the recession of the 80s and things didn’t quite work as they should have done.

Max Russel

What did that mean exactly for your family?

Anil Nagar

Hardship again, because I think the recession of the 80s was quite severe, very difficult for the family to survive.

Max Russel

What did that in mean in a day-to-day aspect for you?

Anil Nagar

Struggle.

Max Russel

In terms of what, in terms of food? What sort of struggle?

Anil Nagar

Cash flow. In business the cash flow is a major issue isn’t it, especially in a time of recession, but we managed to survive that as well, and then in 2017 we sold the business and my parents, they live in a Housing Association flat, and we stayed here.

Max Russel

And in terms of the Newsagent, did you work in the Newsagent?

Anil Nagar

Yeah full-time.

Max Russel

Is that a cultural and family thing, that you were destined to work with your family in their business?

Anil Nagar

Yeah initially it was led by me, my parents were just helping out. It wasn’t my parents that started the business it was myself.

Max Russel

Ah okay so that was something you wanted to do?

Anil Nagar

Yeah that’s right, straight after my Business Studies.

Max Russel

How did you go about that, did you as a family have some cash that you'd accumulated that you had to buy this place with, or was it through a support system that you managed to get a shop?

Anil Nagar

We had a council house in the 70s, and then the Conservative government started to sell the council houses, and that’s when we bought the council house and we sold the council house in Leicester, and that’s how we go the cash.

Max Russel

And was it that you lived above the shop?

Anil Nagar

Yeah.

Max Russel

And did you feel well prepared running that business from your studies and your knowledge, you found it quite easy?

Anil Nagar

Yeah running the shop was quite okay, comfortable, but dealing with recession was quite hard.

Max Russel

So what kind of hours were you working?

Anil Nagar

Long. So between 5 o’clock in the morning until 7 in the evening.

Max Russel

Everyday?

Anil Nagar

Yeah and Sunday half day, so it was quite hard, and you didn’t have any family life as such.

Max Russel

Did you do those hours all those years until 2017?

Anil Nagar

Yeah for 20 odd years.

Max Russel

And looking back on that, what do you think of it as an experience?

Anil Nagar

It was an experience, but I don’t think I’d go back.

Max Russel

Did you feel like it's something you had to do, was your family starting to depend on you to support them or?

Anil Nagar

Kind of yeah, so the family was supporting each other.

Max Russel

And what about your younger brother, what did he end up doing?

Anil Nagar

He went into a school in Leicester and then we moved here, and he went into Sixth Form, and then he went and did his own thing.

Max Russel

He wasn’t really involved in running the business?

Anil Nagar

He wasn’t involved at all, not in the running of the business, so it was myself and my parents, and my wife.

Max Russel

And what was it like relocating to Bristol, were there major changes in terms of how it felt in comparison to Leicester?

Anil Nagar

Again adventure rather than missing anything, or any anxiety of what’s going to happen, its more an adventure at that age, you’re always moving around aren’t you. If I had to that now I think I would not be happy.

Max Russel

Your parents were in the background of running the business, it was you primarily, but as they got older did they stop completely, or they kept still being part of it?

Anil Nagar

They were still part of it because what they were looking at was it kept them occupied as well, kept them busy, something for them to do as well.

Max Russel

We’ve talked about the fact that you don't recall that much about Uganda, but obviously you read about this project, have you always been aware of that identity or has it only been maybe the 40^th and 50^th anniversary that you started to think about your journey, your family's journey?

Anil Nagar

Yeah there are certain things that would result, trigger [interest], like the 50^th anniversary that sort of trigger that “Oh I wonder what happened?” or “What did we do there?” and that’s where it all starts of it doesn’t it, but day-to-day obviously you don’t think about these things do you.

Max Russel

So if your parents didn't talk about it much, did you do your own research into [it]?

Anil Nagar

More or less because my parents, my mother has passed away now, and my father is now in a situation where he can’t talk about it at all. So yeah it’s more independent research and gathering information myself rather than asking anybody knowledgeable.

Max Russel

And what kind of stuff have you learnt or come across, what stands out for you about the story of the Ugandan Asian community?

Anil Nagar

Again it’s a learning process, I haven’t learnt that much. I’m still trying to move my way around the whole issue trying to find somebody who I can relate to or can find the information about.

Max Russel

You said that maybe those anniversaries trigger that [interest], but what is it exactly you want to find out about, is there anything you have particular in mind?

Anil Nagar

No just see how things progress, there’s no set agenda.

Max Russel

Another interesting question that is always raised with people that have been dislocated or have moved around is identity, and that idea of where do you feel you belong. A classic is you have the census and it asks you your ethnicity, or your cultural identity, how do you think of yourself, how do you consider yourself?

Anil Nagar

More British than Asian.

Max Russel

And why do you think that is?

Anil Nagar

The amount of years that we’ve spent here and definitely because my sons, we’re trying to persuade him to get married to Indian girl from India but he doesn't want to do that. Because I said the cultural thing, even though we may be from the same origins, but we’re definitely different.

Max Russel

That's very interesting, so you said British more than Asian. Do you consider yourself Ugandan at all?

Anil Nagar

No.

Max Russel

And do you think that’s because of your age?

Anil Nagar

I think because [at] 6/7 years coming to this country it’s almost like being brought up in this country.

Max Russel

What I’ve heard sometimes is that some people have kept particularly Ugandan East African traditions or foods, like cassava, do you have any of that incorporated into your life, or is it more Asian Indian subcontinent style of food?

Anil Nagar

So my wife, she's from Mumbai, so subcontinent, and I’m East African Asian, so we’ve managed to bring the two together. So we really we have learnt to mingle the two, but in the early days she's finding that she has adapted more to the East African way of life than the Indian way of life, because we got married quite young, I was only 20 and she was only 16.

Max Russel

So it seems like you feel settled in this country and identify with it. Do you think, I know you said your parents didn’t talk about it, do you think they did settle eventually, or do you think they had a longing for Uganda?

Anil Nagar

They hadn’t said that but the feeling that I’m guessing is that Idi Amin chucking us out of the country was a blessing in disguise to be honest, he did us a favour.

Max Russel

Do you think that’s how your parents would see it?

Anil Nagar

Yeah you find that Britian has been a good host, a very good host actually in terms of adapting, and even now it's more adaptable isn't it, we’re beginning to see more and more changes. But going back, my experience with racism perhaps I come across to the host more as an English person, maybe that's why I haven’t experienced racism in my life.

Max Russel

That's interesting, but why do you think that is though?

Anil Nagar

The language barrier possibly, because people do say that I speak English better than the English, so I think the language a major [thing].

Max Russel

Now it’s 51 years since the expulsion. I know you said you’re still in a learning process but looking at how your life changed and your family’s life changed, what to you are the main takeaways? Do you think there is an element of resilience? If you look at those 51 years what would you sum it up as being and how life has panned out?

Anil Nagar

How we’ve adapted to this country, experience and expanded, that’s the main thing isn’t it.

Max Russel

Because you’ve mentioned things that were difficult, the recession, school as well, but do you see it mainly as a positive overall, or a mixed thing?

Anil Nagar

More positive because you know when you encounter difficulties you try to overcome the difficulties and see how you can actually adapt to a more suitable lifestyle.

Max Russel

You said you had one East African friend in secondary school, have you in those 51 years come across other Uganda Asians in a sort of day-to-day?

Anil Nagar

Yeah at the Post Office where I worked there was a chap, there again we had a connection there which was good.

Max Russel

What exactly was that connection, what made you feel that connection?

Anil Nagar

Same area, he was quite older than me but yeah there was a connection there, and we still keep in touch as well. I haven’t kept in touch with all the people [from] my younger age because when we arrived from Leicester to Bristol, then you lose your connections there.

Max Russel

And did you ask this person at the Post Office about their life in Uganda, you’ve discussed that with them?

Anil Nagar

Yeah and similar experience as myself, but he misses [Uganda], but the reason he misses [Uganda] is that he was older, he was 11 years old, so he can remember much more. So he does miss [Uganda] and he does want to go back, but obviously the circumstances he can’t.

Max Russel

Do you mean to go back permanently or just to visit?

Anil Nagar

Just to visit, but I don’t think that most Uganda Asians who’ve been expelled would be inclined, in my opinion, to go back.

Max Russel

Again do you mean to visit or to return?

Anil Nagar

To return to Uganda, I don’t think they would.

Max Russel

You said you've never been back, do you have any desire to visit at all? Maybe see where you were born or you really have no longing for it?

Anil Nagar

Perhaps, but no longing, I don't have that. Because I know some people they want to do this, they want to go back, but I don’t have an inclination to go back and see where I was born, not really, it might be about my age.

Max Russel

And did your parents ever try and go back, or similar thing?

Anil Nagar

No they haven’t. Once they came to this country they haven't travelled that much.

Max Russel

Was that because they had to work and adapt?

Anil Nagar

Yeah it's more about trying to establish, obviously financially it’s not liable to do that.

Max Russel

You mentioned at the start that you've been to India, is that more to do with your wife that you started going there, or had you been to India as a kid from Uganda?

Anil Nagar

No.

Max Russel

So when was the first time you went to India?

Anil Nagar

In 1984.

Max Russel

And you went with?

Anil Nagar

My wife, because she was born there, so that’s where the connection of going to India comes from.

Max Russel

And how did you find that?

Anil Nagar

Again adventurous.

Max Russel

Did it feel like your identity, your culture, when you were there, because we talked about those cultural differences between East African Asians, could you also sense that there?

Anil Nagar

No to be honest I quite adapted to the culture because I’m one of those people who will adapt quickly, it’s in my nature. But again I wouldn’t go and live in India because this country is our place, I’d go there for holidays, but not to go actually live there. Same with my wife, even though she’s from India, she’s not likely to go live there.

Max Russel

One of the final points, you and your wife have children, how have you brought them up identity and cultural wise?

Anil Nagar

They have adapted to the English way of life, because my son is married to an English girl, four grandchildren as well, so they’ve adapted to this way of life more than the Indian way of life.

Max Russel

Do they ever ask you about Uganda, or your background, their grandparents lives, and stuff like that?

Anil Nagar

We do talk about it yeah, just for them to understand where we come from, how we came about.

Max Russel

Do you feel that's important to keep that element [alive]?

Anil Nagar

Yeah to keep that candle burning.

Max Russel

Do they have any desire to visit Uganda?

Anil Nagar

No. Actually my son and my wife they have visited Rwanda, which was next to Uganda, but time preventing they didn’t go to Uganda for some reason, I don’t why.

Max Russel

One final point, how do you think Britain has changed over the last 50 years, personally and also in a wider perspective, what do you think have been the changes?

Anil Nagar

The changes happened when Edward Heath joined the EU in 1972. That’s when you start to see a lot more accessibility of different products and going forward a lot of changes have been adapted, to accepting different societies, especially the young people they have started to accept multiculturalism, I don’t know about the older generation, but definitely seeing a lot of changes in the way in this country has moved on, more acceptable to other ideas shall we say, definitely.

Max Russel

Do you see it as a wholly positive path of improvement?

Anil Nagar

That’s how I see it actually. I never look at the negative, always the positive, and see how we can progress for going forwards, because that’s how I live anyway, always looking at positives rather than negatives. If you look at what could have been and what should have happened you don’t get anywhere do you, so what you need to look at is what can happen, and what you can do, and how you’re going to do it.

Max Russel

I think that’s a great point to end on, thank you very much.