ALISHA SHARMA

Do you know how your family came to be in Uganda?

SHENAZ SAJAN

My father was in India, in Bombay, and my mother was in India too, but the situation in India wasn't [great] economic wise so a lot of people migrated to Africa. My dad's mum passed away in India, so he went to a boarding school. So then after that when he was about 18, he migrated to Africa.

ALISHA SHARMA

Was that for work?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes, to set up a business and mum then also [came], of course she didn’t know dad at that time, so she must have been about 15 when her brothers also thought that it's better to take her to Uganda so she can get married and settle down there. So, she was there too and then dad started his own business in a tiny village called Nabusanke, he was completely on his own. So, then mum got married, it was like you know, she only saw a picture of him and then she got married. She was very innocent just 16 or 17, she said “There I was in the house in this little village with two of my husband’s brothers and a sister” she said, “I couldn't speak a lot because I was very shy”.

ALISHA SHARMA

What year would this have been in?

SHENAZ SAJAN

She was born in 1935, so about 1950. It was such a small village, it's like those programmes you see like Coronation Street, where everybody knows about everybody. It was a nice little village and so my dad was there, he taught at the school, he was a school headmaster, and then he even preached so he was called a priest, and he ran his own business, and he would cycle. I know he had a lot of eczema, mum said, so he used to have injections and he would have to cycle miles and miles to get this injection and then come back and he was bringing up his siblings as well. He was very active and then he started to run this shop. He was a very kind person, anybody who was in trouble he'd help them out, but he was also very smart, he knew how to look after money.

ALISHA SHARMA

Sounds like a businessman.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, a businessman, and mum was very good because she hadn't had so much money in her life so she always made sure that everything would [be used]. So, she would [only] go out shopping if [there was] a recipe and you need something [that you] can't make it [without] but this is what I have done as well, I've learnt to live like that. I use whatever is in the fridge and that's just how life is yeah. So, these little things I have picked up from my mum. So mum had four daughters, mum and dad, and after that they moved to Kampala, the main city.

ALISHA SHARMA

What made them move to Kampala?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Mum’s brothers were all in Kampala, so they all moved to Kampala. I was born in the city and my brother was born after me.

ALISHA SHARMA

And in what year were you born?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I was born in 1960.

ALISHA SHARMA

That leads me on to my next question, you were born in Kampala, I want you to describe your childhood, tell me about your daily life growing up?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, my childhood. I went to nursery, I was the first one in our house to go to nursery and I was so attached to my maid, mum was very busy because she would help dad in the shop, and she’d even make our dresses she would be knitting. So, I think women there, they just did it without thinking about it. So, [for] 15 days of the month she would help in the shop, [and] the next 15 days then she would do other things. So I was the first one to go to nursery and I remember my maid coming with me.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did their economic situation improve considerably when they went to Kampala, that you were able to go to nursery and have made a maid, compared to the village or was that just the norm?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Depends what kind of a maid you would have, sometimes you would have a maid that would just come for a few days, because it wasn’t very expensive, in fact you couldn't really live without a maid. Everything had to be done by a maid or even like a male maid. So the maid would look after the children and the male maid would sweep because there was a lot of dust, they had to sweep and mop [at least] three times a day and all the clothes had to be hand washed, we didn’t have a washing machine, there was no freezer or oven so you would have to have those little fires that you make outside to cook on. So, everything was done manually, vegetables were brought fresh to the door, sellers [would] have a big basket and have all these different vegetables fresh just picked from the farm and they would come up and then mum would buy some, it was just amazing, it was so fresh. So, I think it was just normal to have a maid. And clothes had to be washed every day and ironed when we came home from school.

ALISHA SHARMA

I can imagine very pristine children, being looked after.

SHENAZ SAJAN

I think that was just normal, everybody had that, we weren’t very rich, but it was just part and parcel of [life in Uganda].

ALISHA SHARMA

Would you say you had a happy childhood then?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I had a very happy childhood because I was the fifth [youngest] of my siblings, my older sisters were learning how to do dress making. Dad had in his shop, he would sell loads of material, so they would practise making [dresses] and the only thing they could make were small dresses. Because I was the tiniest, the youngest, they would [practice] on me. So, I always had different things to wear and me and my brother you know we'd be out. So, in those times we didn't wear shoes or slippers or anything we’d just go out running. Sometimes in the holidays I’d leave at 9:00 o'clock and mum would say “Make sure you're back at 7 in the evening” and like we mentioned before we would be in somebody's garden just climbing the tree picking the mangoes.

ALISHA SHARMA

Sounds like such a nice way to live. So, what was your housing situation like in Uganda?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Housing, oh gosh it was so funny, dad had a nice decent shop and you just lived behind the shop in the house. So, in the one bedroom me, my mum, my dad and my brother would sleep and in the other room my four sisters would sleep, and then we had a big dining room and a small sitting room. So, it was a really humble kind of [home] and [there was] a little backyard that you shared with everyone, there were chickens running around.

ALISHA SHARMA

So they moved to Kampala and set up a shop, what kind of shop was it?

SHENAZ SAJAN

So the shop, at the beginning dad just had a lot of material, [so it was] like a fabric kind of shop and beads, and then mum said “Why don't you give up all this and have furniture?” and I remember only three months before we were told to [leave Uganda] that dad had converted the whole shop into a furniture shop. Every time I went to school, you [would] walk to school it took about 35 minutes to walk to school me and my brother. I was only nine and my brother must have been six, we actually walked to school.

ALISHA SHARMA

35 minutes?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah and we’d even come home for lunch. I'm sure it was 35 minutes, or maybe it was 20 minutes, because we also came home for lunch and then we went back to school and then came back at 3:30, but we just walked.

ALISHA SHARMA

I was going to ask about your schooling, so you had a school that was 20 minutes away, what was it like there, was it mostly South Asian?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, so you had a school for the Muslims, a school for the Ismailis, a school for the Sikhs…

ALISHA SHARMA

So, you went to which school?

SHENAZ SAJAN

So, it was a Muslim school and the uniform was little trousers, a dress, a little chunni.

ALISHA SHARMA

A chunni as well! That’s very sweet. So, I was going to ask you, so your religious background so you are Muslim faith. Were you exposed to different religions, different cultures in Kampala?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I’m glad that you say that Alisha because right now I do a lot of interfaith work so I’m always with people of different faiths, but here [UK] you have to make an effort, you have to go to [different places of worship] and you have to make friends with them. But there [in Uganda] it was pretty automatic, you'd see people everywhere and you never really asked [about religion]. Our neighbours were Hindu, Sikh we were in each other’s houses, it's only school that was [separated], that's just how it worked.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, it wasn't kind of segregated anywhere else?

SHENAZ SAJAN

No not at all.

ALISHA SHARMA

And what about the native African people, what were your interactions like with them?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, unfortunately it wasn't so [frequent], because we had our own little communities, even though in the flats where we lived there were all sorts of different people of different faiths. The African community, because I was so young we had our home help and in the shop people would come in and out so we would talk Swahili, but there wasn't that much interaction.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, in terms of language, what languages were you speaking?

SHENAZ SAJAN

So, at school we learnt English, at home we’d speak our language which was Kutchi and Gujarati. Then at the Mosque all the talks were in Urdu, and then in the shop when people came they would speak Swahili.

ALISHA SHARMA

So very multilingual.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, even now at the Mosque [in Birmingham] you find women just speaking Swahili.

ALISHA SHARMA

That must be so crazy to hear in Birmingham, of all places, people speaking Swahili, that's really nice to know though that people still keep it alive.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, and the teachers were all [of] different faith, we had all kinds of teachers we had English, a Christian, and then we had Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims.

ALISHA SHARMA

And everyone lived quite peacefully together, not many tensions or anything?

SHENAZ SAJAN

They did yeah, it didn’t even occur to us “Oh my god there are different faiths”

ALISHA SHARMA

That's really nice to hear, wish we could all live like that a little bit. Is there anything else you'd like to touch on in your life [in Uganda] because I guess you were quite young when you came here, so it's mostly your childhood that was spent there, anything else that sticks out for you that you really remember?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I remember I was very close to my dad and during the month of fast when he would go to the Mosque, I was the only one who’d jump [on board] and go with him, because there was a big hill that we’d have to come down, there was a shortcut, so we’d climb down. And then I remember at the end when he would be chatting away, and I’d be standing in the car park waiting for him. I think I was his favourite.

ALISHA SHARMA

Were you the youngest?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I was the youngest of my sisters, and I remember always sitting in the shop, because mum always left me in the shop, and dad would give me loads of coins and I’d be sitting there just playing with my coins and then he said that “I was a very good girl”. I remember one time I was using his typewriter, a manual typewriter, and something went wrong and I was so scared. I went and hid in the room, I put the bed sheets on my [head] and I was crying for ages and then dad came home and mum said “Oh she's in the room, she's crying” and he came to me and he said “Don't worry, we'll fix it” that was such a big thing for me, “My god what have I done”.

ALISHA SHARMA

So when you think of Uganda what is the thing that comes to mind straight away?

SHENAZ SAJAN

The weather, I mean I had one cardigan it was blue and because I was so thin, I’d wear it all the time because I didn’t want anybody to sort of tease me because I had very thin arms.

ALISHA SHARMA

So it was just warm there all the time?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, because we were on the equator.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you get much rain, not really?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Not a lot no, even when it did, we’d be so excited we’d just run around in the rain but because there was the lake nearby, we were never short of water, and everything was very green. When it did rain what happened was, my dad had a shop and between the two shops there were little flats and there was a big sort of, not a reception but you know how you go up and there's a big section in the middle, and in the rain the African community they would all gather there and then they [would] cook bananas and they would all sit round there and eat together and that's what I remember, there was a lot of unity between them. Normally they would do this in the farm area just behind, we would all get together make beans or green bananas which grew there, it was very fertile, the land was very fertile.

ALISHA SHARMA

Yeah, I’ve heard the saying that “You could spit a seed and a tree would grow”

SHENAZ SAJAN

All [the] fruits even though we didn’t appreciate it at that time it's only when we came here, and we thought “Oh my god what did we lose” the taste of fruit and the vegetables and the freshness [was not the same]

ALISHA SHARMA

So leading on to that then what year did you come to the UK?

SHENAZ SAJAN

We came here in 1972.

ALISHA SHARMA

So can you tell me a bit then about the lead up events from your experience that led up to you moving to the UK?

SHENAZ SAJAN

So, it was around about, I think August, and I remember running home from school because every time I came home from school I would go to the shop and then I’d come up to the house, because we bought a really nice flat then. It was rented, it was a huge flat everything was really nice, the shop was huge now and the flat was so roomy all the girls could settle because like I said we weren’t so wealthy, we managed, dad always managed the hospital, the doctors’ fees, the school fees, uniform and all kinds of things. I used to stop at the shop, and I used to ask him “Dad how much money did you make today?” and he’d say “£100” or 100 shilling and I'd run up to mum and tell her. So this time when I went home mum was saying to my sisters and everyone “Do you know it was on the news that we have to leave, the president just said we've got three months and we have to leave” and I didn't realise [that] mum understood so much English and then dad came home and then we heard, and it was true, he [Idi Amin] just announced it on the TV suddenly that “I want all Asians to leave and if they don't leave in 90 days they will see what I will do to them”.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you feel any shift in tensions or the political climate, before that speech, did you feel like there was something brewing or…?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Well I didn't, but it's only now when I went to Toronto and I was speaking to my brother-in-law and he said that there was tension around about June so people actually did flee [then], they went to places like Pakistan and then at the end, after that, they did come back. He said “There was tension” because I keep saying to him you know “Why did people go early, were they better off because they went early, it's not like they had to lose anything” and he said “No they were in a worse situation because they knew there was tension that was happening so they did run to Pakistan but they weren't really happy and then they came to England” but I didn't, I don't think mum and dad even knew because we were doing really well then and we didn't have a clue, nobody mentioned that at all in the house.

ALISHA SHARMA

So you heard that speech and realised okay this is real, what happened, how did your parents react?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I think it happened around June because school finishes in summer in July and then my mom said “Well there's no point in going to school now” because that was my Year 6 and I was going to [do] my 11+ exams and then they were going to decide what kind of school I would go to. I think [was the same system] there, you’d go to like a grammar school, it wasn't called a grammar school, but it was like a good school. So, we just stopped going to school because we were too frightened because of everything that happened, because in the African community if something happened everybody would be running around, and you’d think “Oh my god what's happening and you’d be quite scared for your life” not that they did anything.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, did you feel the shift after that speech then?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Oh yeah absolutely after the speech.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you hear any conversations about…?

SHENAZ SAJAN

You know, we didn’t know what was happening, it was like a shambles because then dad started to worry because dad had to go and queue up at the office, the Immigration Office, to get all these passports done and you had to queue up from like 3:00 o'clock in the morning, [the] queues were huge and mum was left to sort of just do her own thing and she knew that dad wouldn't leave until everything got sold in the shop. So, she would be in the shop selling things for just peanuts, like 10 pence, and I remember standing in the shop with her because where could she leave us because she was afraid to leave us anywhere.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, they knew they had to leave, did they know where they wanted to go?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Because we had a British passport we were lucky because my sisters were 18 and they wanted to get a job and to get a good job with good pay you had to have a Ugandan citizen stamp in your passport, so my dad said to my sisters “Wait for a little, let's see how things fashion, so just get different jobs”. Both my sisters were teaching, they were going to college and teaching, so luckily, they didn't change their passports, so because we had the British passport we could come to England, otherwise, my husband's family because they were Ugandan citizens some ended up in Italy, Switzerland, in Canada and all kinds of places and the family just all got split up.

ALISHA SHARMA

So your dad was queuing for so long trying to get these papers?

SHENAZ SAJAN

So long, for days and days and often, even if you said one word out of place the army men, they would just take you away. So, I remember my uncle next door I was looking out and before you know it he was handcuffed and the police were taking him away, I don't know what he had done, I remember my dad going to the police station to release him.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you feel a change in behaviour/attitude from the African people?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Thinking

ALISHA SHARMA

Could you feel hostility towards you? I don’t know if that’s the right word?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Probably yeah, because there was a lot of looting going on as well, I think this [was] also what mum was worried about, that if we didn’t sell our stuff, it would just get taken away from us. So, we did feel very uneasy.

ALISHA SHARMA

How long then from when they announced that you needed to leave, how long did it take to actually leave the country?

SHENAZ SAJAN

We couldn't wait to just [leave] very early, even though my husband[’s family] [left] right [at the] end. I think we’d been given September, October, November. So October 2nd that's the day that we packed our stuff, so we couldn’t take any of our money all we could do is [take] our clothes and our clothes were just like you know shiny tights, dresses because we didn’t even have a clue what the weather would be like. Because I remember there were some of these girls I saw coming from England and all I thought of them was “Oh my god they’re so fair” you know like you think English and [you think] white, I don't know why we thought that white was this special colour, and then they said “Oh, well we also wear tights” and I thought “Oh god” and they’d say “Oh but we even get apples on the street” you didn't get apples [here] because it was really hot, its sort of like an English fruit, we had pawpaw and we had mangoes and delicious pineapples but we thought “Oh my god these people they must be so happy” with different types of chocolate and things like that because we just ate very healthy, you know I hadn't eaten chocolate until I was like 10, no sweets, nothing like that.

ALISHA SHARMA

What was your diet like in Uganda, what kind of food were you eating?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Breakfast would be nice, sort of Karak Chai, an omelette and paratha, and then lunchtime would be a full dinner, you’d have your roti and your curry, and in the evening, it would be like a porridge or khichdi.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you have kind of fusion food of African Asian dishes?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes, over there we did, we did incorporate a few African dishes, matoke (the green bananas), cassava, and the passion fruit.

ALISHA SHARMA

Do you miss the food?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes, I do but we make it here too, so here it’s all about English African Indian you know all kinds of things, the mandazi, I don’t know if you know mandazi, the sweet cakes?

ALISHA SHARMA

Oh no I haven’t had them. So, you are still cooking that kind of food here keeping it alive?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Oh yeah absolutely.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, tell me then about the day that you left Uganda. how did that go?

SHENAZ SAJAN

So, mum just packed our clothes in a suitcase and dad was very cautious that we [might] get caught at the airport because there were some people who were smuggling [personal belongings], we weren't allowed to take jewellery with us, can you imagine? We weren’t allowed to take lots of jewellery out of Uganda, so there were all these restrictions, so we didn’t take much, what we had we just had to quickly wear on our necks. Mum said, “Oh put this necklace on” and what we had [on] we came with that. So, we just had our clothes, I think mum did have all her…you know I tell you something Alisha I haven't got any of my pictures [of] when I was young and I don't even know what I looked like, can you imagine? My friends, we've got a group of my class friends, and they sent a picture, and I didn't know who I was, we had [photo] albums there and the last thing mum thought about was bringing a [photo] album, she thought about just taking clothes [practical items]

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you know that you were going and not coming back or did you think you were going to come back?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I don't know what I was thinking.

ALISHA SHARMA

Do you think your parents packed with the intention of coming back at some point or did they sell their property?

SHENAZ SAJAN

No, you couldn’t do anything, you just had to leave everything, my dad’s shop, his belongings everything he’d worked for forty years of his life he just left.

ALISHA SHARMA

How were your parents coping?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Well my mum and dad they did sort of argue, because they were always a very loving couple and then I saw mum and dad and there was always friction because dad couldn’t do anything right because mum had a lot of tension because you can imagine that you have six children and you’ve got all this packing and mum did a lot of the [manual] work because dad wouldn't have a clue [how] because he was so busy with his shop [and the paperwork] that he wouldn’t have a clue what to pack. So, she had all this pressure and then she had the pressure of young girls. So, what had happened is someone in Zanzibar, what they did is they took all the young girls away and then married them off to the African boys and the girls had to just stay there in the village and have kids, and so this is what mum was really afraid of, that she thought that my older sisters would be taken away from her and be married. So, there was a lot of mental health [issues] which I didn't understand [at the time].

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you pick up on the tension?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes I did.

ALISHA SHARMA

Was there a sense of fear would you say?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, probably you could call it fear, I don’t know what it was, but it was probably mental health stuff as well. I know mum had a lot of fear.

ALISHA SHARMA

I guess from the time the announcement was made then, it was only a month-ish before you left really, [it] happened very fast, so not really a lot of time to process. So that day then, you said you couldn't take much jewellery with you, it's just whatever you could wear and your suitcases with what you could carry, so you went to the airport?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, we went to the airport, it was the first time I had ever even seen a plane, at that time it wasn’t like how it is right now [were] you just go on a plane and go somewhere. I just remember sitting on the plane and my mum kept saying “Look, look what's outside, look” she was just trying to [comfort me] she was afraid that I would be too upset. We were just so innocent at that time and I was feeling so sick, I just remember feeling so sick, I was always travel sick even in the car I’d be a bit travel sick and I just thought “Oh my god I wish this would be over” and then yeah I think we landed in London Stansted Airport because then when we landed we were straight away, because it was so cold in October, we were taken to a charity shop where we had to pick clothes so we had to wear a coat and a hat or something because our [Ugandan] clothes were so flimsy, and then we were given sandwiches on the bus.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you recognise anyone on the flight with you?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Oh yeah it was everybody that we knew, it was like a big family.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, you came to the UK not really knowing where you were going, did your parents know where they would be taken?

SHENAZ SAJAN

No not at all, there was a coach full of people and then they took us to the Newbury camp where you have the army, [and] big shelters, the accommodation that they have [normally]. So we had a huge room with eight beds in, because there were eight of us, me and my four sisters, my brother, and my mum and dad, so they were [laid out] like in a hospital. So, we had the eight beds and then we had a sink in the corner and outside you’d have showers and a bathroom to share and everybody that was there, we didn't know them but it wasn't like unfamiliar, you know there were people like Hindu people, and there were other people. And then they had a big canteen where they told us that “These are the times that you go and eat” and at the beginning they were giving us, I was watching a TV programme just now about how it was in the camps and somebody said “They were just giving us lots of boiled vegetables” and we weren't used to that because back home our foods were very spicy and Indian and so somebody said “Oh we’ll cook, so then they started to make [the food we had back home]”

ALISHA SHARMA

Amazing, so did you understand why or where you were going?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Because I was young it was like an adventure kind of thing, but I know that mum and dad sort of weren’t very happy and then [the camp staff] they said “Oh your girls are quite old now they’ll have to go to Reading on a course” so my two sisters were sent away on this teacher training course in Reading and I remember my dad writing letters to them “My dearest daughters”, he had the most beautiful handwriting it was just like magic you know how it just flowed, and I remember he was sending letters to them and they’d send letters back.

ALISHA SHARMA

So they acknowledged their teacher roles that they had in Uganda and said “We will train you to be teachers in the UK”? That's nice. So what was your housing situation then when you came [here]?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah so because dad wasn't used to having things done just for free, he was never ever used to anybody giving him any allowance or anything like that so he was really really keen to move out and get a job and fend for his own family. So he started going in [the Camp staff’s] office to tell them [he wanted to move out in order to get work], whereas us, they set up a school for us where everybody went and [there was] quite a big shop there like a charity thing where we could go and have clothes so we would be wearing all different clothes all the time, they were like second hand clothes but it was nice, we were looked after well though. The teachers would take us for a walk in the forest and I remember them telling us “Oh you have to layer up because it's cold here” and I remember autumn, because autumn is very special to me, and [the teacher] she said “Oh look at the golden leaves” because I’d never seen orange leaves ever before and she’d explain to me and said “Look at these berries” so for me it was it was like a fairy tale kind of thing I thought “Oh gosh this is nice”

ALISHA SHARMA

That's so nice, so you were treated nicely then when you first came? That's good to hear.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, and so then they found us a little house, like a cottage house, in Chipping Norton. So we moved there, and I remember at the back [of the house] we had sheep [grazing] at the back.

ALISHA SHARMA

Just for your family this little house?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, just for my family, there were some neighbours, it was like a nice little cul-de-sac that we lived in and then there was a coal fire, there was no heating, and my mum didn’t have a clue how to make a fire with the coal and the firelighter. I remember the newspaper people coming in and then we had to pretend that we were serving tea, so we were plastered all over the newspaper that this family has come. And I remember one time we didn't have curtains in the upstairs room and when we woke up in the morning there were curtains outside the door. So I went to school, I’d never done French, [but] my maths was very good I was like two years ahead for maths because education in Uganda was of a high standard. So, I couldn't do French, so they used to keep me back and teach me French, just like a one to one, and I picked up so much. I used to love my teacher and I used to walk back [home], and it was like all these fields I used to walk through and come home, even though it was winter, and mum never sort of even ever asked “Are you okay?” because she never even knew that there was any worry.

ALISHA SHARMA

So you felt welcome, how did your neighbours treat you, how was the general reception in the area that you were living in?

SHENAZ SAJAN

The area I don't know about, but I know it was Christmas and we were invited to somebody's house where she put out a whole dinner, she took us to a church, you know the normal Christmas things even though I didn't [understand], I understand it more now, Christmas, and then we played games like a normal Christmas family would do. So, they did that, but then it didn’t last long because mum realised, because dad he was on a course to learn something they were trying to get him a job, so they said, “Why don’t you do this training course?” so he used to go there and do that. I don’t know whether he enjoyed it or not, and mum would be at home you know sort of trying to manage cooking, just learning and then mum said “Well now we've got all these daughters, we’ve got our older daughters how will we get them married, where will we get Muslim boys from?” she said “If we live in this town what if…” because at that time we thought “Oh my god” we’d heard all about the Western culture, there was drinking, and she said “If they end up marrying boys from here what will we do then?” and she said “I don't think I can live here” and again she was very unsettled so she said to dad “Why don’t we move to London? We’ve got a community there” because back in Uganda there was a whole community, we had a mosque and she said “I want to start going to mosque because what am I going to do without religion?” even though we prayed, we got together and prayed, my dad did his little prayer bit and everybody listened. So, we moved to London then and it was so funny because we had to almost like sneak out of the town because you were so afraid to tell them that you were leaving. So, dad did go and say that we are leaving, and they said “Well you’ll have to take all your furniture with you” because that furniture was donated. I realise this now because we’ve sponsored a family here [in the present day] and they've all left and now the council is saying that “You've put all this furniture in their house that was supposed to be theirs, we can’t go and find the people who’ve donated it so now again we have to give it to charity”. So, my dad, being the way he is, he got a big van, he put all the furniture in the van, and I remember being in the van and all of us travelling. And so, we went to London in this little house that was rented and there were so many mice in that house oh god. So, we moved from house to house and then to go to mosque we’d have to catch three trains because dad insisted that our faith [was important]. That was one good thing was that dad wanted us to make sure that we really had Islam in our hearts. So we’d go to mosque and about [after] a year and a half my mum still couldn't settle and she said “This is too much for me I can't do this” so my mum’s brother lived in Birmingham so she said “Let's go to Birmingham” so we had a choice to either go to Birmingham or Peterborough because my three sisters had got jobs at a bank, NatWest bank, and they said that Peterborough “Was too small” and all the sisters won't be able to work in three banks because “We don't have banks so close by”, so then we decided to come to Birmingham then, so that's when we came here.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, did you find that there was a community, people coming together from Uganda in the UK? Did you find each other?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes, we did, we found a few even though we didn't know who they were, we just knew that they were from Uganda. So, we used to meet up in a little house where during Ramadan we’d all get together there and break fast and during other sort of events, so we’d just cook and eat and just get together. So, we couldn’t settle in the house, so we kept moving house and every time we moved house dad insisted that we moved school, so every year would be a different school.

ALISHA SHARMA

It must have been very all over the place?

SHENAZ SAJAN

All over the place, because you have to get used to the teachers, you have to get used to the people, make friends.

ALISHA SHARMA

How did you feel about all of that moving?

SHENAZ SAJAN

I didn’t think about it at the time. But you couldn’t progress, because you're doing well and then again, you're sort of moved. So, you just have to get on with it and I couldn't upset my dad and say, “Don't do this dad”.

ALISHA SHARMA

Did you miss Uganda when you first came?

SHENAZ SAJAN

We missed the weather. I know at Mosque everybody would say “Augh look at this weather” until somebody said, “You know what, we’re here to stay now, so let's not always compare”.

ALISHA SHARMA

It just takes one person doesn’t it.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes I know for years we said that, and so we travelled and travelled and we moved houses and then finally the community, because we have a very big community, so everybody got together and then we had enough money to build a mosque and now we are quite an established East African community at the mosque and because we are all quite into business they started to buy different land [nearby] the mosque and get established.

ALISHA SHARMA

Where abouts in Birmingham?

SHENAZ SAJAN

In Balshall Heath

ALISHA SHARMA

That’s where my dad was from, amazing. So where would you say home is?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Do you know what I really don't know where home is. I mean if I was told to leave now I wouldn't know where to go. Iran is very close to me, but I don't think I'd live there. And then I even went to India, so I went when my son got married [to a lovely girl] she was from Mombasa in Kenya and she said mum “I want to get married in my town” so we travelled all the way to Mombasa and so we thought “Well Uganda’s not too far it’s only an hour away by plane” so we went to Uganda to visit about ten years ago.

ALISHA SHARMA

How was that for you?

SHENAZ SAJAN

That was nice you know, I recognised my dad’s shop, even though the shop is converted into like a warehouse. And my husband wanted to go and have a look at his house, [we] went there and then we went to the flats, even at that time [in the 70s] the flats looked so beautiful, but when we went back, I think they hadn’t been looked after very well so they were a bit dingy. You know when you're young everything looks so huge, even the mosque, when I was small the mosque looked so huge and at that time it was like the rich people sat in the front, the [middle class] people in the middle and the ones who weren’t well off at the end. So, I remember my sister saying, “Guess what you know those [wealthy] people they used to sit right at the front” and we were back here. But then when I went the mosque [seemed] so small.

ALISHA SHARMA

Do you feel there’s a conflict of home, do you feel like you could class Uganda as home or would you say Britain is home now?

SHENAZ SAJAN

You know I really don't know; I really don’t know what my home is. And then I went to India to find my roots I was like searching everywhere where my home is.

ALISHA SHARMA

That was my next question, in terms of identity and belonging what has that journey been like for you, being displaced at such a young age but still being old enough to make some roots in Uganda, what has that looked like for you?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Uganda is probably, I don’t think I could go live there, India I couldn’t live in India. I often go to Iran but probably not. I don’t think I’d call anything home.

ALISHA SHARMA

Do you think home is people now?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah people, my community…

ALISHA SHARMA

Have you kept your faith?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, I think that’s it, I’d just call myself a Muslim.

ALISHA SHARMA

It sounds like the way you settled was gravitating towards where the faith was because that was your community, and the community all came together for that one thing.

SHENAZ SAJAN

You know I’m probably not being fair, for not saying that this is home, but I suppose I’m so sorry that I feel this way…

ALISHA SHARMA

I think it’s understandable though, being displaced, but still your parents came, okay it wasn’t your grandparent or great grandparents that came to Uganda just your parents, so I guess you weren’t there long enough as well to say generations of my family have come from Africa. I can imagine it's a very weird in-between place.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah, even here sometimes you think “Do I fit in?” you know what I mean, you’re always trying to fit in and trying to make lots of friends from the different faith groups.

ALISHA SHARMA

That's what I was going to ask you, how do you think your experience has passed down to your children, have you tried to pass down your stories of Uganda or incorporate Uganda into any aspects of their lives?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Probably not, I probably haven't, I think the most [was] when I did my poem that's when they realised that “Oh gosh mum, is that what Uganda meant to you and to grandad?” and it's only then, because I think they’re very British children being born here, very Muslim but also very British. I'm so glad that they call it home and the way they interact with people, whereas us we still have that fear “Oh my god will they accept us?” and I don't know how long that’ll last for, I've tried to feel as normal as I can but there’s still that fear and also [being anxious of going through that trauma again].

ALISHA SHARMA

Do you feel that that mindset is still with you?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Probably it is yeah.

ALISHA SHARMA

I understand that must be very difficult, you’ve been through something very traumatic, but I guess in the way that life goes everyone just kind of adapts and carries on. But when do you [get to] process or when do you [get to] acknowledge that actually this was really difficult for my family? So, what did your parents do, you said your dad got retrained in a different profession?

SHENAZ SAJAN

He never settled, he started looking for a shop, he wanted a shop like how he had back home, so he looked at a shop in London and then he wanted to put the deposit down but then mum said “Let's move to Birmingham” and in Birmingham he met and he got together with all his friends and then they said “Why do you want to work?”. At that time, you could get funds off the government and then I think he just lost all hope. But the good thing is I could spend more time with my dad then because he'd come everywhere with me, my dental appointments, my first interview when I was 17, right until I was 18, he kept all my appointments and it was only when I was 18 that I started to get a bit more independent, I could catch a bus and work.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, you went through the British school system from the secondary school onwards?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yeah from 12 but it was very broken. So, I really didn’t do any history, so I don’t know any history about Uganda and then I don’t know much history about here. So it was really sort of messed up, that's why I made sure that when [my] children [were born] I wouldn't move them from one school to another, they were set in one school and then I made sure that they all did the 11+ and go to good schools and they are all qualified.

ALISHA SHARMA

It sounds like the value of education is something that lots of  Ugandan Asians value.

SHENAZ SAJAN

Oh yeah that's very precious to us, and I think also my faith tells you to make sure that you have the knowledge and education, so all the children set off, I'm so glad they did well and even the daughters in-law.

ALISHA SHARMA

And you said your husband's from Uganda as well, so did you know each other from Uganda?

SHENAZ SAJAN

We knew the family but because we were so young, we really didn't know each other.

ALISHA SHARMA

So, the families knew each other and then both came to the UK?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes, that's right yeah.

ALISHA SHARMA

So how did you kind of find each other again or was it just in the communities, did he settle in Birmingham?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Yes, he settled in Birmingham right from the beginning.

ALISHA SHARMA

So if there was something that you did want to pass down to your children or future generations about Uganda, like a specific memory, or tradition, or anything, that pops into your mind what would it be?

SHENAZ SAJAN

Oh, just the clear blue skies, the fresh vegetables, and the integration, you don't have to worry about “Oh gosh I’ve got to make friends with this person, got to go to church to make friends with the Vicar” and email after email, you know that effort. Now I’m just trying to find my feet at my age. But yeah, I want everybody to remember that Uganda [was] very integrated, friendly, very free, like you’re a bird flying.

ALISHA SHARMA

Thank you, I don’t have any more questions, do you have any more questions?

SHENAZ SAJAN

No Alisha I think I’ve spoken enough.

ALISHA SHARMA

I’ve really enjoyed listening to you talk and I’m really grateful for you sharing your experience, you’ve really made me want to experience Uganda, you’ve sold it if there’s anything to sell! You’ve made me fall a little bit in love with Uganda during this conversation so thank you so much for your time.

SHENAZ SAJAN

No thank you.

I left my heart and soul in Uganda

My livelihood I had built for 40 years

Snatched away from me

Just like that!

Like learning how to crawl again after marathons

Sleepless nights were part of me

My blood and sweat were now just memories

I miss you Uganda

I left my heart and soul in Uganda

Where every day the sky was clear and blue

The warmth of the sun on my body I miss so much

The green fertile earth and the plantain so delicious

Ripe juicy mangoes staring at me

Paw paw as sweet as heaven

I miss you Uganda

I left my heart and soul in Uganda

Surrounded by friends and family

People of all creed and colour living in harmony

Like a long unending rainbow

Hindus Christians Muslims Sikhs

Living on the same street

As one big family

Diwali Christmas Eid celebrated together

Year after year

I miss you Uganda

I left my heart and soul in Uganda

Living in the west

Family all scattered

I feel like an empty nest

Hearts are weeping

Shining glowing happy faces are no more

The sun rarely shines outside

Nor in our hearts

People have only sadness on their faces

I miss you Uganda