Max Russel

So Harshinder thank you so much for joining me today and for wanting to be part of this project. To start I was wondering, could you tell me about your life in Uganda prior to the expulsion and prior to the expulsion announcement?

Harshinder Sirah

It was wonderful Max, life was really good. I have black and white photographs that inspire me and it was always very vast, there was lots of lovely land, and properties looked amazing. I remember going on the back of my father's pickup truck, going from building site to building site as a young girl, seeing these amazing beautiful buildings going up. The architecture was amazing before it was destroyed, but it's coming back now slowly, but it was a very lavish green sandy coloured country and very vivid in its culture, because you had the Ugandan Africans, and you had Ugandan Asians, and Indians started coming from India too. So there was a lot of cultural differences but somehow we all really got on, the Muslims, the Sikhs, the Gujaratis, the Hindus, Christians, we really got on, I remember that, and hence being able to speak all these languages because I think I just picked them up through the communities as a child.

Max Russel

Do you know your family history of how they came to be in Uganda?

Harshinder Sirah

Yes I do, it was during Partition. My grandparents were born in Hoshiarpur in India, and I'm from a Sikh family, and my grandparents through Partition were offered to move to Africa. One grandfather was a civil engineer on the railways, so he worked on the Indian Railways and then was moved across to the African railways. My other grandfather was an accomplished carpenter. So they thought this was a wonderful opportunity to progress and build life and that's where it started, and I don't have any memories of India because I've never been to India, so I'm pretty much British Ugandan Asian.

Max Russel

And in terms of that then, what was growing up like in Uganda? What was your sort of day-to-day experience, going to school, interacting with the community, was this Kampala, Jinja [or]?

Harshinder Sirah

I was born in Mbarara Max, and it was a very vibrant city, is what I can remember, and having visited numerous times as well after the coup. I remember going to school with a cousin of mine who was a bit older, and our house girl at the time, we had house girls who would take us to school. I was quite naughty, I do remember, because I would be found at my aunty’s house. I would never go home, I would escape school and run across this field, and then I realised later in years to come, when I went back to Kampala and back to Mbarara, these were places that Idi Amin himself visited. So in Mbarara I have vivid memories of being in the school, having picnics at lunchtime, I don't remember sitting at a table having proper lunches I remember amazing picnics that my mum would pack and we'd be sat on a lovely bit of luscious grass and lawn on a sort of hilltop, and it was just very calming, very very wonderful, and then later we moved to Kampala after Mbarara and that's where I have memories of running across this field to my aunty’s house. It was because she had peacocks she had lovely dogs, she had parrots and tropical birds in these amazing cages and also that were free to roam around. The parrots would just be walking through the house and I think I just loved all that, and I was very well fed and watered as well, so I must add that, and I used to get quite nervous when I went there because I was scared of my uncle. So I used to hide behind the tree until he would say to my auntie, my nicknames Pinky, and they’d say “Oh look Pinky is here, she's hiding behind the tree again”. Then my auntie would come and get me and inform my parents where I was, and the house girl would be looking for us and wondering where I'd gone, but it soon became a regular pattern, that's where I would be found. I later found that my aunty actually taught me much of the skills I have particularly in fashion, so she was teaching me to sew, so that was another reason, knitting and sewing, so I used to go to her house and sit with her after school for a few hours of a day.

Max Russel

What were your parents professions in Uganda?

Harshinder Sirah

My parents professions, my father is a retired building contractor, my mum was a housewife, and there are three of us, [me and] my two younger brothers, and my father worked really really hard, he didn't have education after the age of about 11 and went straight into work for his family. He came from a large family and he just worked his way to the top and he actually had contracts with Idi Amin and he renovated his barracks before the coup, and the point you asked me about school and what memories I have, I forgot to add that when I went to my aunty’s house I always had to cross this lovely piece of green and run across these grounds, and later I understood, and I remembered helicopters landing on this ground outside my aunty’s place, and that was where Idi Amin would come to Kampala and take off. So I have those memories as well because I remember standing there with my cousins and watching this helicopter take off and our clothes blowing up and thinking “Ooh”, so I have those memories as well.

Max Russel

So you mentioned having a house girl and I've heard that that was quite common for lots of Ugandan Asian families, to have help in the house, was that the case in terms of your town, your city, your community, that it was quite regular for most families to have that, or was it more a standout?

Harshinder Sirah

It really was [common]. It was what we were brought up with, having house help, you have to be careful nowadays what language you use to address house help, years and years ago they were called servants and you can't use that terminology now, it just doesn't feel right, but you know work was needed, work was needed for people and we provided that, and I think the bridging of the gap between Asians and Africans was really good and very evident in early life, 50 years ago, where they were excited to have us there. We were very community orientated, we would include them in the family home, we would provide shelter and accommodation, where the Ugandans would be very poor, from a poor background, and right till this day, when I come on to talking about my visit to Uganda, I'm in touch with our house lady who was with us for over 45 years, and her daughter is a really good friend of mine and we met up and it was just wonderful. My father paid for her to go to school and my father built accommodation on the property, so we all lived together like a community, and I think many people did that.

Max Russel

And then I wanted to ask, that's one form of interaction with the indigenous population, in terms of white Europeans and white British was there any interaction with those people while you were growing up?

Harshinder Sirah

Yes there was because I was always being told that I would get up in the morning for school, and the first thing I would say to the neighbours is “Morning! Morning! Morning! Morning!”. As I am now I was very chatty then, and we had some English and Chinese neighbours, but I do remember some English and British friends, and lots of Goan friends, my parents had lots of Goan friends I remember that too, very much, and as I mentioned earlier the Gujaratis were very evident in our lives, much more much more than Sikhs in fact, hence the journey with Uganda 50 I haven't come across many Sikhs being involved, but more Gujaratis being involved.

Max Russel

And in terms of going to school then, was that a mixed school in terms of both gender and background, or was it a predominantly Asian school?

Harshinder Sirah

I went to a mixed private nursery school, so I was quite young then, and I remember I wasn't always allowed to be so free and forward thinking with my friends. I came from a very strict Sikh background, my father was very strict in who I would be friends with, where I would go ,whose house I'd attend, it was always meticulously arranged and organised because the old fashioned way was that, I have a good grounding of education but I don't have a career, and then I'm married at the age of 18, and that's how it was really, that's how life was then. Little did they realise that I was going to [go to] a very prominent girls school in Bristol that made me very headstrong and fight against all that.

Max Russel

Well I think that brings us naturally onto 1972 then, and the coup the year before and then eventually the expulsion decree. So first actually let's start with, how old were you in 1972?

Harshinder Sirah

I was 6.

Max Russel

6, so still very young, but seems like you have memories of childhood in Uganda. So do you remember, firstly do you remember the coup at all?

Harshinder Sirah

Yes I remember having our home raided, I remember lying under a bed being told by my parents, I was the eldest, I had a 3 year old brother and I had a one month old brother, one month only Max, and we were hidden under a bed. We were raided by the army and for years and years, I never really talked about it until recently with Uganda 50, and talking to my mother and family, having nightmares of guns with knives on the end sharp ends and I remember them on the ceiling, and that must be from hiding under the bed and peering through and seeing the army coming in and my father negotiating at the door to take what they wanted but to keep us safe, so I remember that, very much so. And also driving through Kampala and seeing children being shot in front of me, seeing bodies lying on the roadside and rubbish dumps that was very vivid, and of course we were sent to safety, but we were the last families to be sent to safe safety, and then I went back Max when I was 11 years old. So my brothers came with me and then they went back, they actually went back when they were 8 or 9 years old I think, to try and go back to live. But it wasn't safe for girls, girls were being raped. So my father and mother had a discussion with extended family members, my uncles and aunties, my then grandmother, and I lived with them for some years to give me solace and shelter and I didn't go back at that time, because it wasn't safe for girls. I remember going back when I was 11 years old, so I had to travel on my own and I remember it was British Airways, going through Brussels airport and being put on a plane and doing that whole journey, where I was quite torn that my parents were staying, my brothers were staying, but I had to come back on my own. But I was starting my girls school, which is Colston girls school, and you know that's been in the news a lot with Edward Colston being the benefactor for the statue that went in the river in Bristol, so I actually went to that school and I was one of only two Indian girls in the school. So I had to be headstrong from dot really, and have my family support me, my extended family, to get me into school and give me some kind of structure, but I went to I think eight different junior schools before I was settled, eight different junior schools. So when I came to England we went to Honiton camp in Devon, the resettlement camp there, and I remember that very much because I would be left day on day to be sat cross legged with my younger brother at a month old, and to be giving him bottled milk because my mother couldn't feed him at the time, she had to go and look for food and understand how it worked, and we were given vouchers and we were given stamps and she was searching for milk and food. So I would often be just left by the dormitories or sat on the floor and then from that we went to a Christian family that took us in, sorry before that we went to Bradford we stayed with a family but that didn't work out, it was about three months, it was all too chaotic. Then my mother found through the resettlement, a Christian family took us on in Bristol, and to this very day we’re in touch with that family, and it's wonderful because the kids are our age and we lived with them for about a year and a half all before we got rented accommodation.

Max Russel

Well some very interesting points that I want to wrap round to [later]. You're talking now about arriving at Honiton camp in the UK, so how long were you in the camp for without being with families, how long was that period from arrival to finding the first family in Bradford?

Harshinder Sirah

We were in camp for about 2 months, I think 2 1/2 months. We managed to come out of camp quite quickly I think, because my father risked his life, he was offered a job in England as a gardener, he was already a successful building contractor and he built that many houses and so forth, he even built part of the post office in Kampala Road which is infamous at the moment and part of the universities and so forth. So he just turned around and said “You know what I would rather be shot dead than become a gardener for my family. I mean how's that how's that going to work?”. He was very proud and he wanted his kids to achieve and so he gave us the best he could. So he got us out of camp quite quickly and people use the word privileged to me in other interviews “Well you were quite privileged weren't you?” I don't think I was privileged, I think my parents were very very headstrong, made a decision and brought us to safety. But my mother she really struggled, luckily she had command of English, but there was three of us, three tiny children, a month old, a 3 year old, and a 6 year old, and just mum, and she was trying to make relationships with lots of English families and she was very lucky, because she's a very wise, calm, lovely lady, she made friends very quickly. But it wasn't easy and we had integrate, and I think it helped that we went to school in Uganda where we learnt English very quickly, we had command of the language. So I think it was just a series of, being at the right time, with the right infrastructure, from my parents that got us here, but it wasn't privileged and it wasn't easy.

Max Russel

You mentioned there that you sort of then moved around between families that were offering you temporary accommodation, I assume, until you found something? Was that the plan?

Harshinder Sirah

Families were offering temporary accommodation and we could stay on as long as we wanted, but obviously everyone always wants their own space don’t they, with their children being so young, and I think again it comes back to my father, the culture and wanting to have control of making sure his kids are okay, and that they are doing things in a particular way, and the structure is all there. So we finally ended up in a rented home for several years, and then my parents bought a home, but I was shunted pillar to post, as I said eight different junior schools until I landed at Colston girls, and I was a term late, my school fees were late, and I didn't have a uniform and I really stood out as a sore thumb. My girlfriends till this day remember me arriving and they were quite taken aback “Who is this person? What is this culturally?”. So we have formed a Facebook page and we all come back together and we meet up and I hit lots of notes with them and lots of things, but they do remember, and they've enjoyed the Uganda 50 journey this year because they didn't know my background, they didn't know my history, and I don't think I had the opportunity to talk about it, and I’ve in a weird way enjoyed doing the interviews, to be given an opportunity to finally be me and to finally tell my story. There are so many atrocities I could talk about, when I went back to the age of 11, I remember on my way back to the airport, just with my father, I was stopped at the roadblock with my father and the army wanted to take me and I had a gun at my head, at the age of 11, and my father had to negotiate [for] me with crates of whiskey and whatnot, I mean that's what I was worth, that's it, that's all I was worth. And at the same time at the roadblock there were people being hung for stealing bread, so there's been lots of atrocities but we try not to talk about them so openly because we want to be safe. I think a lot of people are a little bit nervous about bringing it all back again, I've coped with it well, but I tried to talk about it with my mum and there's a lot more down there, you know deep down that I want to get to, and I hear of new things all the time when I'm speaking to my mum. And it’s my father that I really need to get to talk to because he has some amazing situations and grief that he's been through.

Max Russel

I think just to go onto that, I think that's really interesting, this return [to Uganda]. So you said you were 11, you said you were 6 in 1972?

Harshinder Sirah

Yes.

Max Russel

So this is what 1977 you went back, is that correct?

Harshinder Sirah

Yes just before 1977, before I’m starting my senior school yes.

Max Russel

So am I [correct] in assuming your dad didn't leave with you in 1972, it was just your mum and your siblings. How did this return come about, you said that your brothers then moved [back], because 1977 as you said the situation in Uganda is still pretty dangerous, volatile, so do you remember how that journey came about, going back?

Harshinder Sirah

It came about because it was a summer holiday and most summer holidays my father would invite us to come back, and I particularly remember that year because I was excited, I was nervous, I was travelling on my own, I was starting a new exciting school, and I wanted to see my childhood friends that I'd left behind. Who some have not left and are still there and they've become so successful, it's remarkable, two of them are right hand people to the now president [Museveni], one of them is a very high up magistrate. So I'm very astonished at how they've survived and coped and done so well but they were also half Ugandan half Sikh/Punjabi so they had command of all the languages, so they sat well in the community. I enjoyed going back but I did feel scared and when I talk to you about it now that fear is still there you know, but there is this sensational feeling of belonging and a want. I love where I was born, I have an affiliation to it somehow, I don't know if it's because I'm a designer artist and you know the whole smell, colour, food, culture, is all resonating with me and is part of my being and I need that to fuel me as a person. So I find opportunities to try and go back when I can, it's not an easy journey nowadays to go to Uganda, as you know they had direct flights 8 hours door to door but recently it took me 19 hours to get across and 25 to come back, so it was very very tough, but yeah I miss it, and I think my biggest insecurity, if you might put it that way, is not having my father with us. So when people think of us being privileged I feel like saying to them “You're very lucky that your father made the decision to come back with you and to support you”, our father did it the other way, he wanted to give us the best of everything, so he earnt, he worked hard to provide that, but he had 16 bullet shots in his Land Rover travelling from building site to building site. He had lots of other things happen, which I don't really want to go into, but he survived all of that and it wasn't easy. He would buy a brand new Peugeot or a BMW because he wanted it to be low mileage, good condition to start with, good engine, but I remember as a child a couple of cars that he bought and he would reverse them into pillars and into posts on purpose, brand new cars, and I would say to him “What are you doing?” and I was quite shocked, and I still remember that, and they would throw mud and soil onto the car to dirty the car because the cars were being stolen, or homes were still being raided later in life. So that was his way of surviving and all of those things I do remember.

Max Russel

That's very interesting. Have you talked to your parents about that, I assume it's a conversation they had during the expulsion, that the idea was you and your mum and your siblings go to England, your dad is staying behind, or was there a plan for you guys to eventually return or for him to come, or that was the plan?

Harshinder Sirah

Look this is probably another interview to be done because right now and for years what we've been facing as adults is the dissatisfaction of my father, he's very proud deep down, very proud of who we are, what we've become, but he's also dissatisfied that we took on the British culture. We do things the British way, we do things the here and now, I particularly have tried not to forget my background, I've kept the languages, I've tried to keep the culture, but I went to a very strong girl school and a very British girls school that commanded a lot, but it also equipped me with so much. I wouldn't be where I am today if I didn't have that education, so for that I'm grateful, but you know what Max my father's in his 80s and he's pining even now for us to go back, and on behalf of thousands of families that will not talk to you openly about this, I'm talking to you openly today, and saying we cover it over, we don't talk about it, we shield it, we try have these happy families getting married here to folk from our own background, or to English folk, and we've had to go through and navigate those journeys, and they've been really difficult journeys. I married a European, I’m no longer married to that European, but I married a European, but it was difficult to do that, but it was also equally difficult to find an Asian guy who would take on a strong woman who was independent, who could speak so well in English, it was all just too much 30/20 years ago or whatever. Now it's totally different, we paved the way from the 3^rd/4^th generation of folk. But my father is still wanting us to go back, and only a year and a half ago my younger brother, who was a month old [when we left], who doesn't have memories of Uganda, doesn't speak the language, supported my father for a week to travel, he couldn't see or hear very well. So he took my father back to Uganda said “I'll be back after a week” to my mother. It’s been a year and a half Max, he gave everything up, he gave up his career, his job, and he's now living in Kampala and he doesn't want to come back. So something holds you there, something anchors you, there is a freedom almost there, as well as the fear, the fear is still there, I mean I went back and it's amazing, and I enjoyed it, I had a lovely time, I had a wonderful lavish wedding to attend which was all set for me, like a stage, so that was okay for a week, and then I met my childhood friends and stayed in the hotel, and stayed at my father's, I had a little bit of everything. But towards the end of my three weeks or so I started feeling a little bit nervous because I was on my own and I started hearing of so many people getting hurt, and troubled, and then I thought “Oh gosh I don't know if I could live here”. But it is building up, the country is really building, the houses are becoming bigger like they were when I was a child, so all of that is coming back. There’s unity amongst the Asians but there is a real divide happening between African Ugandans and Asians. So you keeping these interviews and history really has to be shared because I don't think those generations of Ugandans 3^rd and 4^th have a clue about the settlement of Asians in Uganda, they don't have any idea about what we went through. So when I was in one of the hotels I was chatting away to waiters and whatnot and they didn't know anything about the British Uganda Asians and I shared with Warwick [Hawkins], I shared going to a place where I was taken. There was a resort on the edge of Entebbe and I saw these planes that were being used to make it look authentic, artistic I suppose is the word, on the resort they had these statues that have gone up and I saw the Ugandan airline plane sat on the ground and something went through me, my centre started shaking, and I thought “Oh my God what's happening to me?” and I remember those planes Max as a child, I remember those Uganda airlines, and I remember being on them, and I've been trying to find out whether that was the actual plane from 1972 because it was war-torn, you could see it all war-torn, and helicopters that were war-torn around it from the coup. So I think they've kind of used it as a sort of artistic way of display, that [for] someone like me who's gone back, it just harked back memories that were not all good.

Max Russel

That's very powerful isn't it, again those sensory elements that can trigger memories and feelings. So let's touch on maybe a bit more about your recent journey to Kampala, and before we go into that, you went when you were 11, did you then continue to go over the years back to Uganda, or was there a break in going for a while?

Harshinder Sirah

I did go back a few times after that but it was always very shielded because I was back at the family home, I was still being treated as a young girl, although I was a grown up adult, and there was still the cultural barriers, there was still fear of not going out. I would have to be back by sort of six o'clock of an evening, my father wouldn't let us out the compound, he has a compound an area with guard dogs and gates that are locked, and it's quite interesting to see that a lot of the gates where houses were owned by Sikhs, have the Sikh emblem made out of wrought iron and on the gates, so you'd see the sword, the emblem of Sikhism, and you knew the people that were living there were Sikh, it's quite pronounced, and that was also a memory from childhood which has continued, and it's a kind of status symbol in a way as well. And I think this time when I went back I'm a grown up adult, I took my son with me, and I don't know if you know but my son has special needs so I wanted to try and do a two way journey. I was going to a wedding but I also wanted to finish my Uganda 50 journey that I've worked so hard with this year, through my artwork, through my workshops, through my teaching, but I also wanted to see how much my son would be able to do in that journey, and he's been back a couple of times, and how much he would remember, and he was so excited you know to go back, he was really excited, asked for various people he remembered and what was wonderful is my lovely friends, oh my gosh I've never been treated so humbly Max, you know they invited me to their homes for dinner, taken out, protected, driven, drivers given to me, new hotels being built, places to visit, and they're having a lovely time actually because they know how to juggle life there, they know the places to go to, they know how to protect themselves and the times to go out, if you don't know any of that it can be quite dangerous, you need to be careful. But I really loved going back this time and I was so honoured I went back to the gurdwara, which is the Sikh temple, that I stayed in during the coup with my family, so my father took us out of our homes and we shielded in this temple where gunshots were going, people were being shot you could hear the rifles, you could hear the shooting, and we were in this temple, we were all together, huddled together, and it was quite amazing to go back to the temple this visit, six weeks ago or so, and all those memories came flooding back. We played the music that we used to play, we were also going to the prayers in the temple that brought back memories. And all these people popping up saying “Hello Pinky. Hi Harshinder” and I had prayers said for me and my son, it was just really humbling, and wow is all I can say, that I had so much respect.

Max Russel

That's very interesting I wanted to pick up on a point you said about your friends learning how to navigate life there. I think that's a very interesting point you're talking about, including your father, a generation that have had a continual presence there since the 70s. There's of course also a sort of a newer generation of South Asians coming from the Indian subcontinent probably from late 90s onwards to East Africa and Uganda in general. Was that community together or is there a clear divide between the newer generation of South Asians there and those that have more of a history in Uganda?

Harshinder Sirah

There's a clear division definitely and more so from Indians from India that have found business opportunities in Uganda to make money, hotels are being erected, businesses are being formed, there's a division in how they do things. You find that the Asians gel better with the Ugandan Africans because we know how to speak Buganda, Luganda, Swahili, and you would use those languages to integrate, whereas the Indians not so much have the language, ability, or want to be part of it, and there's a real segregation. I don't really want to use the word racism but I feel there is a sort of division between African Ugandans and Indians and that unity isn't there as much, and they are seen to be lesser than the Indians you know, I have to be careful how I say that without sounding pompous in anyway, but I'm giving a true reflection. I mean going back to discussing about my friends who I grew up with that are like brothers and sisters to me, that stayed on during the coup, they lost a lot of their families that were poisoned, shot, so forth, they don't really talk about it but I remember all that, and they are a big family, and they are half Ugandan African and half Punjabi so they integrate better, and that obviously is going to happen with people marrying outside and so forth, you're going to see a new generation of folk [emerging], but I think the only unity you might see between the South Asians and Indians and Ugandan Asians is the religion, the faith, the Sikhism, the Hinduism, the Muslim background, that brings folk together. I don't know if the harmony is the same as it was 50 years ago because we would sit with our fellow Muslims, we would sit with our Goans, we would sit with our Christians, but we never saw them [as] different we never saw them in any way [as] different, but you can see that there is a difference from Indians from India that are integrating with this set of people, and we mustn't forget the Goans because they were very prominent in Uganda at the time. And it was really lovely this time round to go and visit because I went to two weddings, one the very lavish wedding, and then I went to this other wedding that I was invited to which was a Goan wedding, and it was fantastic, there were people in their 80s getting married Max, they’d been together over 57 years and they decided to tie the knot and it was amazing. And the lady that got married I knew of her and I was introduced to her, she knew my parents, and she was telling me stories as well of the coup and of my father and how my father helped so many people. I mean my father would pay something like £5 for hundreds of people to be buried, people couldn't bury their loved ones, and my father gave a lot, he worked with the missionary groups there, he renovated the churches in the area and all of this happened very naturally, and I think that's what probably a lot of people are missing but will not say it openly to you. I think that's what they miss in this country, that unity, that expression, that community spirit. In this country I think it happens in cohorts you’ve got Pakistanis together, you’ve got Sikhs together, Somalians together, but over there, everybody from the Uganda Asians’ perspective, they all walked, taught, ate the same.

Max Russel

Going onto that point of community and integration, you mentioned you when you arrived in the UK you went to a lot of different schools before you settled. Was that different schools in Bristol, or is this because you were with different families around the UK?

Harshinder Sirah

I have to think about that. I think it was because we moved around, you're pulling my heartstrings here, we moved to London, we lived with my mum’s sister who was settled before us some years. I went to school in London, I went to a school in Bradford, Chipping Sodbury, various schools in Bristol, and it must have been because we were unsettled, we didn't have anywhere to live until we bought a house. We bought a 3 bed the other side of where I am now and that's when my parents decided, and you know many parents had to make that decision, that they absolutely loved each other, don't know now, but going back all those years they made a decision, they loved each other and for the safety of the children they would come over and they would make the best of the opportunities that were given. So Dad stayed back, he said he was going to come and join us in one week of us leaving Uganda, that week never happened, he never came back, he's never lived with us in the 50 years, he's just come and gone come and gone, and it’s had a real effect on us to see our father come and go come and go, it's provided insecurities within us but equally it's provided strength as well because they're very strong parents, very strong parents, and I don't know how they've done it to be honest. But I do remember going to different homes and schools and then we were all sent to private schools, both my brothers went to private schools in Bristol, I went to a private school, and I think that was because they wanted to put all their eggs in one basket and give us the best they could, because they didn't want us to have insecurities and we lost so much of our life. You know they say the first 16 years of your life are the most important that you don't forget, and I think that's what they were trying to do, give us the best of that. But having said all that, as I said earlier in the interview, my father is still pining and still unhappy that we never went back, he went back, he wanted us to come back, he wanted us to have our education and then I think what he wanted was at 18 and 19 for us to go back, get married, have our careers in Uganda and that simply didn’t happen because we gained strength from the public grammar schools we went to and it made us who we were, to battle through.

Max Russel

Then arriving at Colston school in Bristol, you said you were one of two Asians, was that an issue to start with, was it a continuous issue?

Harshinder Sirah

Do you know, again the whole Uganda 50 journey, but also going back to the school I went to and coming back to the statue that was thrown in the river for the slave trader and benefactor Edward Colston. I never knew I went to such a school, the girls didn't know, we don't remember being taught anything about that. Now when I look back I remember some of the incidences, I do feel that I had some racism in school and it's really weird because in my Facebook page I'm getting apologies and when we talk about certain things in a way I shy away from that because [I’m cringing] I don't want that to happen, I don't see you like that, but they have openly said “Harshinder if I ever did anything wrong, if I ever said anything wrong or I was unclear please forgive me. I didn't know any better, I wasn't taught, it was a new culture”. And in the same breadth I love singing, so I used to sing a lot in school, I was in the choir I did a few solo pieces and I taught my girlfriends at school two songs, Indian songs, and they remember them and that many have come back and said “I'm now teaching my children the song that you taught us Harshinder” and they send me messages of “Happy Diwali” which is quite nice, I mean I'm not a very religious person, and remember I went to a Christian girl school and I come from a Sikh family, so I'm kind of torn between the two, but I know exactly what to do and how to be when I'm in a gurdwara or a temple, but equally it was it was just nice to hear that from them, that they've carried that on. And we openly talk about that there must have been some racism because I remember I wanted to be an actress when I was younger as well and that kind of soon went out of the window because I would forget lines on stage, and I'd get stage fright and I thought “Okay this isn't going to work it's not going to happen”. And then I remember at the age of 11, again before I went to Uganda, setting my goals for my subjects that I wanted to be a designer and that's what I was going to be, and I did become one and I went on with that, but I remember incidences such as which was recently talked about. They were bringing up plays that we did you know, the Pied Piper was one of them, Lady Precious Stream was another one, Macbeth was another one, and I remember saying “Well I don't know why in Pied Piper I was suddenly made a merchant in this production?”. Why did Ms. Brown an English teacher who was very phenomenal,, you know she’d stand on the desk and tick us off because she couldn't get us quiet, so she'd actually get up on the desk and start bellowing at us, and she said “Oh now Harshinder what part can you, yes let me think, let me think, oh yes why don't we have a merchant from India. Your brother he wears a turban doesn't he? Do you think you could borrow his turban?”. And I remember now thinking back “Oh my god this is quite embarrassing” and I was a little bit naive as well and I just did what I was told, because it was a pre-Victorian era and a pre-Victorian education that we had, so I borrowed that turban, I took it in, and I've got pictures of me in this play, a merchant from India. Now there was no merchant from India in Pied Piper but it was just made up, and other characters were made-up, and I thought “Well why didn't I ever have a Bridgerton part” it would have been nice. And now the girls in their 50s are saying “I find that quite strange now looking back, I'm very sorry”, it's not their fault, but I don't  know if it was racism Max, I think it was probably more lack of understanding culturally and education, I'd like to think it was more that.

Max Russel

And what about outside of school in Bristol, because in terms of the Ugandan Asian community in the UK the majority settled in Leicester, and then to a lesser extent, London, Birmingham. I haven't heard so much about Bristol, so was there an existing South Asian community in Bristol or?

Harshinder Sirah

You know I think people keep forgetting Bristol, they skirt around Bristol, and even through this Uganda 50 journey I've been trying desperately to have the exhibition that's been in Honiton, in Exeter, in Leicester, in London, be brought to Bristol. It's a very significant port, it's a very significant city, and most of the Asians in Bristol are from Uganda, but they're not talking about it, they're not bringing it to surface. I tried very hard, I did a huge exhibition as an artist last November, it was quite well staged in a way because I did it in a very pre-gothic rundown church, and at first I thought this is a bit morbid, but actually it was really amazing because it was in the crypt of the church, there’s history attached to this church, the owner I know really well and it was an amazing backdrop to the church. So my artwork looked phenomenal in this place, but it was also me harking back to all those atrocities from Uganda, and it being held in a church where there was a graveyard and people that had died, and I thought actually this is quite good as a stage for my journey and my perception. So I tried to draw as many people to that exhibition as I could, I did get quite a lot of publicity, and I did have interviews with the BBC for that, and they've been recorded and so forth, but I wanted to make it bigger, I wanted to take it to the local library, which I’m still working on, and still learning about how to do that. So trying to maybe get the grant to do this but my Councillor is very interested in this and thinks it's amazing what I’ve done up and down the country and that it should be acknowledged in Bristol, so let's hope Max that we can do something, it would be brilliant if we can.

Max Russel

I want to get to your work that you did last year in a second, but arriving in 1972 you said the majority of South Asians in Bristol are of Ugandan background, where they dotted around, was it sort of a neighbourhood when you moved in, what were your neighbours like?

Harshinder Sirah

What I remember is my mother made a definite decision that she didn't, and she still says that, she didn't want to stay in an area where they were going to be too many Asians. She made it very clear, to herself and to folk, she wanted to integrate Max, she wanted to get a better command of English, she wanted to feel welcome, she wanted to feel a sense of belonging. She was a young woman with three tiny children, it was a very scary time for her, she soon made friends with English whites, friends of hers, and we had the temples, you know we had the gurdwara, we had the Hindu temple that we have in Bristol. They’re two significant temples that we met in with others that was always something that jelled us and gave that unity, and we were invited to weddings, we were invited to religious functions, but predominantly my mum chose to stay in a very white community because, I don't know maybe she was fearful, maybe that's why she wanted to integrate, I don't know that, but I've been very much in a very prominent white area all my life, even in the school I was in. But my being an artist and a designer and all of that part of my learning and journey I think always pulls me back to visiting weddings and religious functions, and I love languages so I'm always chatting to people, a lot of people know of me in Bristol, the Indian Asian community know me very well because of the fashion work I did. I was the first British Asian designer in Great Britain to do what I was doing from Bristol, and so I was picked up with that, and then I became the artist I am today, and the teaching. So I brought lots of warmth I think to communities where their children weren't allowed to do certain things, were not allowed to become artists, were not allowed to become designers, or teach this kind of background, and I brought knew ideas and new thoughts and because I did them well I think they were followed by younger generations, which is really lovely to see. So that's been incredible to do that, now obviously my journey with my son’s disability, that's another focus I've got, and another cohort people. On his Facebook page I have 1,000 people following us without even advertising, and it's phenomenal to see that they are to from Asian, Muslim, English backgrounds, and again they're focusing on what I'm doing with my son’s education. It's amazing what communities can do really and even if you are predominantly in a white community you're not [a] million miles away from anywhere that you can go to get a little bit of your background.

Max Russel

That's amazing I want to pick up on two points there. We've talked there about your career, your artistry, and being a trailblazer, you mentioned that wouldn’t have been possible in Uganda. As you said you came from a very very traditional family where women had a very set role, is that something you have reflected back on, the difference in what would have happened in your life if you had stayed, if the expulsion hadn’t happened, is that something you think about?

Harshinder Sirah

I don't know actually, you know I'm a strong person, I have my weeps behind closed doors, like we all do, I have my insecurities like everyone else, but I've had to really soldier on and I've really had to battle. As I went back, as I said to you, I wanted to be a designer, my father wouldn't allow it, I wasn't allowed to have a career, I was to be married, let my husband decide, I came from all of that culturally, but I got to Salisbury art college I was the only Indian girl in the whole city, there was one Indian/Bangladeshi restaurant, and I was the only Indian girl in the whole of the art college, so that was phenomenal at that time, back in 1986. But I think I probably would have been married, and I think I would have followed a path where all my cousins have followed. I don't think I would have had the opportunities I've had here, to be so dogmatic, so passionate, and to have a sense of freedom that I've had here. There is freedom now because we are grown women, we do our thing, and when I went back this time I saw a total difference, where I stayed in a hotel and I navigated my way round everywhere on my own, and that was different to what I did before where I was at my father's the whole time under his rules and regulations, which was not comfortable for me. So I thought this time I'm going to really go as my own identity, my own person, finish my journey, and of course go and stay with my father as well and visit him too. So I think it would have been very different for me, but who knows, because as I said I've been so headstrong and I got to where I wanted to and I became the designer, became the artist, I became all of those things, maybe I would have done in a different way, or maybe I would have had the security of a husband that was from the same background where I wouldn’t have to also fight when I was married to someone European and it was very difficult, my family, not my immediate family but my extended family took that very strangely, they didn't like it to begin with, it's now become part of life with 3^rd and 4^th generations, we've provided that pathway. But I've been through a lot you know doing new things, new ideas, and new content. But then having seen my friends now, going back, my magistrate friend, my other friend who's going to become the right hand person to the President I just think oh my God I would never have thought they’d be where they are today, these are really prominent people that are really high up now, and they too were not able to make their own decisions they were camouflaged by their families, they were hidden in the temple, they were hidden at home, they weren't allowed to do certain things without permission, and here they are making these huge decisions for the country, and they’re in powerful powerful positions, so who knows perhaps I would have. I wanted to go back Max actually when I was, 25 years ago I remember asking my father, when I’d been featured on the BBC Clothes Show as a designer and so forth and I was doing so well there, “I want to go back and open the fashion school papa” he said “You do what?” I said “I want to go and open a school of fashion or maybe teach dressmaking”, at that time I wasn't the artist I am today, and he said “No you're not doing that” at that time, he said “It's very difficult to do that you won't be able to get the equipment you won't be able to get the threads you won't be able to get the cotton wheels” this that and the other I said “There's always ways around it papa” and he said “No no it's just not safe” I said “Just let me have one of your buildings please, the smallest one, let's put a logo on there let's start teaching” because all my teaching experience has also been with communities. So I taught at a project called Silai in Bristol, which was very well known and received, and I was there for four days out of five over six years, I taught at this project called Sali sewing, and I taught the Caribbean community, Ugandan community, Pakistani community, Sikh community, and it was me that actually came in and ruffled feathers and said “Why are we only doing ethnic minorities that are brown? We should have ethnic minorities that are Polish, Italian, Hungarian…” and they did kind of go “Woah we don't do that, that's not what we get our funding for” and I thought “No you should be getting funding for that” so I made changes there, but I wanted to take that whole thing back to Uganda. If I had another 20 years on me Max I promise you right now, I think I would go back, with the journey I went on six weeks ago, I think I would do something back there. I did meet with the owner of Auro foundation, so Auro foundation I was put in touch with I raised some money for them with one of the journalists and for a charity thing, and they work with vulnerable adults doing vocational courses such as woodwork, carpentry, art, dressmaking. So we are in talks with trying to raise some money for them if we can and affiliate them with a school or something but he's already set something up like I wanted to years ago, so if I had that strength and energy I probably would do it, but it's a bit more difficult for me now with my son and running it.

Max Russel

I think to round up on that then your work seems to very much involve your identity, if I'm correct, and you talk about that sort of feeling of going back to Uganda that generates those feelings, both happy and sad, on a broader paradigm, in terms of identity, how would you define yourself? Do you see yourself as Ugandan, do you see yourself as British, do you see yourself as Asian, do you see yourself, you didn't say you had that religious, but or is it a mix of all that?

Harshinder Sirah

I see myself British as nationality, Ugandan as birth, and Asian Indian as heritage. I love all of the three categories I've mentioned and because of my art background, my design background, it pulls me into the cultural stuff, the textiles of the countries, the colours of the countries, the people of the countries. I like to have an organised sort of environment as well, but I like to project ideas, and thoughts, and feelings, and I'm really proud that I can be able to speak in the languages that I am able to speak in, wherever I see a gentleman whose Sikh it's always “Sat Sri Akaal”, if I see somebody who's a Gujarati I’ll speak to them in Gujarati, I enjoy that. I think I'm a British Ugandan Asian, yes and very proud of it, I'm very proud to be here. I sometimes cringe when my family, my extended family, and I don’t know if you’ve heard this before, when they speak of white folk being called gora or gori, which means white man or gori which is a white woman, it just means white, but I always cringe when they say that word because I feel like saying “Why can't you say that he's Italian, or he's Welsh, or he's English?”. It's like saying that your Pakistani paki, you know that horrible horrible disgraceful racism that you can feel from those words. So I do cringe at things like that, and I think a lot of folk from the old generation probably wouldn't know how to take me, probably would be proud of me, very much so at what I've accomplished, but they’re amazed at how much I do and put together. But you know I'm a sort of people person, I'm creative and I make things happen, and I have lots of ideas and I construct things from that. So yes I'm proud to be Sikh, I’m proud to be Indian, I'm equally proud to be British, and I am being pulled back I must say to Uganda, I miss my brother who's there, and I miss the beautiful hot feelings and thoughts of the weather. I miss how calm Ugandan Africans are, they were amazing with my son, there was no competition, there was no identity crisis, there was no money, affluence, kind of recognition identity or failure for that, they were just people who were very kind to my son, who couldn't speak so well, and if he’d ask for something they were all over him. So you don't get that very much here because everyone so busy, so busy being important, so busy having a big car, so busy having a big house, they lose the identity of people and hope and I just want to provide hope and encouragement to people, it doesn't matter what you have and how accomplished you are, I hope I'm pretty grounded and I try and stay grounded if I can.

Max Russel

I think that's a beautiful point to end on.